Suggestions for Race Season 8

Well if you are just going to ignore arguments that defeat your own argument you can pretty much never lose.

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Did the IPD recipe improve racing in general? At this point i would say, yes it did

So even given the fact that the IPD recipe improved racing whilst reducing the RNG required in general, for some reason we shouldn't expect the same to happen with movement speed if GGG were to add guaranteed MS boots early on? Got it.

More importantly though I wish people would stop making this strawman where they argue that "we can't and shouldn't remove RNG because that would be detrimental" when all people are asking for is "RNG to be reduced to make it a little more fair." Everything else you bootstrap on to this, the expected shift in blame on other items..etc, is totally irrelevant because the goal of the change would not be to remove RNG from racing entirely but to simply reduce it.

And it is most certainly true that by reducing the amount of things that are negatively affected by RNG you are not removing RNG but you are making it statistically less likely for people to get screwed over by bad RNG, that's all.

Removing and reducing something are two entirely different concepts, the two aren't synonymous in any way.

But I think the problem here is very much down to perception, you might think that finding boots with movement speed is "good", when more realistically not finding boots with movement speed is "bad". Think about it.

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cwu wrote:

Tag, you said it yourself, that if you remove too much RNG from racing, it would feel stale and boring :p

If you make the starting zombie drop 10% ms boots and solve the QS problem, the "RNG blame" would just shift to the next item in the item-chain:
- boots with more ms (5% ms still gives you around 40s per 30 min)
- gloves with dmg/AS
- jewelry with dmg/AS/CS
- life gear
- etc etc

Let me remind you of what was happening before the IPD recipe, races went like this: "Oh I had 3 alchemies, 2 chaos orbs and didn't get a single damage roll on my double axe, while the other f***er got a rare 100% ipd weapon from vaal". Now it's: "Oh I didn't get a single whetstone before Act 2, no superior weapons dropped, didn't have a rare rustic for my final weapon". Did the IPD recipe improve racing in general? At this point i would say, yes it did. Did it remove the RNG from racing? Only some part of it.

To me it feels like all the dissatisfaction about RNG comes from the sig races, i don't hear people complain this much about the regular (say 1 hour solo) ones. Signature races are what they are. a chance to make a run at the record with the RNG you get in that specific race. All there is to do is to try your best with the stuff you get. There is no point in raging or saying that "I wouldn't get the record at this point", because you never know what might happen next. Vaal can drop you wideswing. Blood rage may drop. You can have dumster/godlike docks density. If one tries to get a perfect run, he might as well log out if he didn't get ms from the vendor.

I would love to see some positive changes to bow and one handers. I also have to say that right now we probably have the most balanced meta, because all 3 core builds (leap, ST, caster) achieve roughly the same results in signatures. Finally i fully support the idea of improving the champion packs density in docks from 1-12 to 5-8. I wish the races were longer though, that way all the RNG could even itself out :(

i qq about rng in other races too

vendor rng can be very frustrating, as can be ms. id change these two first, ofcourse there would still be rng whether you get 15% early a2 but it's smaller of two shits.

i dont know how theyve coded density to work but its stupid you can roll same zone with such a huge density difference

What qq means? In Russian its the sound cuckoo bird does

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jstq wrote:

What qq means? In Russian its the sound cuckoo bird does

QQ comes from SC1 and WC3. You could alt+q to just insta-leave the game, now people commonly use it to mean something like "crying" or "whining". I guess language evolves.

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SlixSC wrote:

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jstq wrote:

What qq means? In Russian its the sound cuckoo bird does

QQ comes from SC1 and WC3. You could alt+q to just insta-leave the game, now people commonly use it to mean something like "crying" or "whining". I guess language evolves.

I thought it was because the Qs look like eyes crying.



Anyway. What I'd like to see is the amount of signatures cut in at least half.
With almost every passing signature, the rng wall you have to surmount in the following grows higher. As the races pile up, trying for a record becomes a really frustrating experience, even as early as Hillock.

I think the signature aspect of racing needs to start moving away from the core game, and into a more, less rng dependent environment, and there definitely needs to not be 50 of them per season. Yes less rng means less fun in general - I was first to say this way back in the day - but that's why the signature should be a unique, novel experience and not something that is spammed 1 to 2 times a day for the entire season.

Giving 10%ms boots of the zombie is exactly removing the RNG. Same as giving a guaranteed 2nd QS or introducing a restriction for only 1 QS on the belt.
Introducing the IPD recipe is reducing the RNG, because you still need to find:
- base weapon
- whetsone (or 4-5 superior weapons)
- currency and a rustic

It always makes me smile, when the reason to introduce these potential changes is to make things more "fair". Is the current system not fair? Are the current (and past) signature records holders not deserving? As a reminder: the person who whined about never getting good weapons and made a post on these forums, which GGG had read and introduced IPD recipe into the game, never got a sig demi and is not playing the game anymore.

Regarding whether finding ms is "good" or "bad". I don't think a racer is obliged to get ms or 2nd QS every race. Therefore finding ms is "good", because it's better then having none.

I did mention that removing too much RNG might make racing boring.

I also think having multiple RNG layers is a way to balance things out since you can get lucky in some areas to compensate for other unlucky ones.

My suggestions are not meant to reduced RNG just for the sake of reducing RNG but rather a list of things that i think would make racing a better experience.

Of those, i think the MS changes are the most controversial in terms of going too far and its hard for me to predict if that change would end up being healthy or unhealthy for racing in the long term.
If the changes go through, my priority would then be to get flask charges gained/reduced on a belt since thats almost equivalent of having double qs.
I guess in a way its similar to: "Now that everyone gets a docks double axe, its all about getting attack speed"

So i can see how this can enter a never ending cycle and maybe it doesnt have a real solution.

As for the "good" vs "bad" i think its an interesting thought.
For me personally, not getting ms i consider "bad" while getting 2nd qs i consider "good".
I think it has to do with, lets say, if i find ms boots on half my signatures i then assume i should have a reasonable chance of getting them and not getting them feels "bad" to me.
While a 2nd quicksilver seems much more rare so i don't assume im entitled to get one.

Of course, i shouldn't assume im obliged to get anything, but its stronger than me :)

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cwu wrote:

Giving 10%ms boots of the zombie is exactly removing the RNG.

It's not really removing RNG, there would still be 15%ms+ which would outperform 10%ms, the only difference is that the person not finding 15%ms would be less screwed if they got 10%ms right from the start instead of 0%.

There is still some RNG, the only difference would be that the range of numbers the RNG could fall into would be more limited and more fair. You can still have "worse" RNG, but if you have worse RNG at least it's just 5% rather than 15% worse and still gives you a fighting chance.

So yes your argument is flawed because people aren't saying "remove rng" they are saying "reduce rng".

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the person who whined about never getting good weapons and made a post on these forums, which GGG had read and introduced IPD recipe into the game, never got a sig demi and is not playing the game anymore.

Even if that was true, you yourself said that the vendor recipe is a good thing, so what exactly does that prove?

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"Now that everyone gets a docks double axe, its all about getting attack speed"

True, but let's think back to the pre-ipd recipe days. Some people would find 90ipd weapons + atk speed, whereas others would only find low ele dmg roll weapons which were effectively useless in comparison. Was that fun? For the person finding the 90ipd weapon probably yes, because there was no way anyone else could possibly win, not even close.. for the person not finding a good weapon? I guarantee you it was not.

Take an analogy. Say you roll a dice 50 times, the possible range of numbers you can rollis somewhere between 50 and 300. Suppose for the sake of argument that, if you roll anything lower than 100 you die, if you roll anything higher than 200 you get a million dollars. It's this binary experience that is taken to such an extreme in some of the aspects of racing that make it less fun.

If that were the general framework of our dice-rolling experiment I don't think it would be wrong for people to argue that perhaps we should remove the number 1 from all dices so that they don't just die if they get extremely unlucky. This is very much the same concept that we currently have in racing.

People are saying 50-300 that's fine. I'm saying why not make it 150-300, why is that wrong?

Nobody is saying "remove racing rng", just reduce it and once you realize that RNG in PoE works on the same principle as rolling a dice (or multiple dices when you combine all the various RNG elements in PoE) you start to understand why RNG as such need not be completely random for it to still be there.

I think alot of that misconception has to do with people falsely equivocating "randomness" in a vaccum with no limits and "randomly selecting numbers within a given range". Not the same thing, totally different ballgame.

How about this: run much more races than now (like a constant flow, different race types in same time) but count only 5-10 best results for the season ladder? You can always just wait a maximum couple hours and try set another record, if run was dumpster, who cares? You got better results before. This will solve 2 (maybe more) problems:
1) rng - you get bad rng? just try again
2) current dumpster ladder state. Just look at my position and you see why it is dumpster :) Now the ladder means your participation first, and then your skill and knowledge. But with this change it will reflect your skill and knowledge.

If they get rid of quicksilver/ms rng how will i be able to make excuses about ppl beating me that are better than. Do u want me to have to cope with reality?