we need aspirational endgame in 3.28 otherwise game is doomed

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

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Strickl3r#3809 wrote:

Bows don't suck because they are not the optimum in t17 speedfarming meta or whatever, lol.
LA seems like a good build to clear the entire game with, don't see the issue.

Cause nothing has really changed. Bow builds are still just as good as they were a few leagues ago during their high peak popularity. They still perform amazing. The only thing that changed is that popularity shifted to other skills and archetypes, and somehow people confuse “not popular” with “not playable.”

You can still throw on TS, LA, Ice Shot, or whatever other bow skill and go from zero to hero perfectly fine. Even TS after the nerf is still totally viable if you actually want to play it. It didn’t fall off a cliff entirely, it just stopped being the main character and main focus for the streamer crowd.

The whole popularity mindset and streamer clickbait stuff is just cooked. People see less hype and assume the bow archetype is dead.

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

i want the second one, because POE is a build freedom, solving the puzzle and playing different things

Correct, and I’m sure you’ll eventually solve the puzzle and realize that Int stackers are not actually the main problem of the game. Most everything else is quietly carried along by the steady march of power creep.

So yes, if we nerf one archetype, power creep will continue its subtle ascent. If we nerf everything, player power is tempered across the board, sometimes even where it’s actually needed. If we do neither and simply introduce new content, it will eventually rise to match the current power level, making that content feel genuinely aspirational rather than a trivialized joke at the expense of unchecked power creep.

wouldnt adding more difficult content to the game when existing can only be done by 10% of builds only result in more difficult content to be possible to 1% of the builds ?

Whats the point to even pick up the game then lol ?

I enjoy poe/LE/D2/NRFTW the most when i can just roleplay a character archetype and naturally evolve the character and the game allowing me to do so. So far in this regard poe has been the worst out of all the mentioned titles because only for poe1 I MUST use external tools and wikis to get anywhere, I MUST copy from others to get to a state of the game where it gets enjoyable to experiment.

And to play a game with a permanent sense that - "i am actually not playing the game, I am just following rails laid out by someone with 10k hours into the game" - is ass.


The root game design flaw in poe1 and especially in games like D4 is multipliers.
Once your offence is driven by multiple multipliers that multiply each other, it takes missing only one such multiplier and you can throw your toon into the trash.
Once defences are driven by %, it becomes very hard to balance the game so it is challenging because difference between 0% and 1% is negligible but difference between 89% and 90% is huge. And voila, a single number here or there and your entire toon is either a god or a trash.

The pendulum swings too hard and this game has pendulums on pendulums, to the point it just becomes a chore to play.

The game design formulas have not evolved since the times the game had only like 20 active skill gems, the bloat grew, new multipliers got thrown into the pile.

Game becomes trash if your damage numbers start to be listed with a scientific notation.

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Henide#3803 wrote:

The root game design flaw in poe1 and especially in games like D4 is multipliers.
Once your offence is driven by multiple multipliers that multiply each other, it takes missing only one such multiplier and you can throw your toon into the trash.
Once defences are driven by %, it becomes very hard to balance the game so it is challenging because difference between 0% and 1% is negligible but difference between 89% and 90% is huge. And voila, a single number here or there and your entire toon is either a god or a trash.

how do you imagine ARPG game which is all about building your character without any multipliers?
poe2 already tried to force players into pvping with mobs, guess what? still 99% of people who reach endgame play skills which perform well. and underperforming stuff which corresponds jonathan's vision is forgotten bc even multimirror gear cannot help scaling it, like shield skills in poe2 etc.

and in poe1 there are no "multipliers which multiply each other". you just have various ways of scaling builds. for instance, str stack scales strength which gives tons of flat damage, KBOC necro scale flat damage from mana, whereas KBOC hiero scale % inc damage from indigon and so on. that's where stat balancing comes. if you already have a lot of flat damage, increases and mores gonna give you more dmg than additional flat damage.

various setups of some build still have their ups and downs. for example, BV witches, BV scion, BV assassin, BV chieftain or PB hiero, PB trickster, CWS PB, PB pathfinder are totally different builds, some of them have better damage, some better clear, some better surv, and the difference between this stats is not 1-2%, its huge

DOT as always has its dps cap at 35 millions, and its not easy to reach, the only realistics ways to see this number is some poison bosskiller like PB or chieftain's 500% booming some rare or unique mob.

in the recent juiciest leagues of all time (affliction, mercs, pre-nerf-fiesta necropolis) build divesity was great. you just need to learn some game mechanics. the problem is only in some underperforming archetypes, like minions, which are weak as hell at the moment (bc of nerfs of the most playable ones like spectres/carrions/zombies). there are still exceptional builds like holy relic or blight-oriented builds like chains of command, but overall they are weak for general mapping strats or bossing

Well, 3.28 is gonna revolve around the Mereketh from Poe 2. We'll have to wait and see what new league entails. My guess is something with time and hourglass stuff - like fill hourglass by killing monsters or a time-based combat.

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Henide#3803 wrote:

wouldnt adding more difficult content to the game when existing can only be done by 10% of builds only result in more difficult content to be possible to 1% of the builds ?

It would, but fortunately we’ve reached a point where nearly every build can tackle all content, making the endgame feel almost trivial and flattened by the sheer amount of player power we’ve stacked over the years. This league only highlights the issue even more, particularly in light of how much the endgame has been gutted.

Adding new, genuinely more difficult content would be far easier to create and far more fun than a massive dev-led mop sweep, scrubbing away power creep across the entire game as part of a huge, overarching project.

That said, an Expedition-like patch with larger balance changes wouldn’t hurt at all.
But, who wouldn’t enjoy fresh content? It’s always more exciting than the same old base game with nothing but balance tweaks.

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Well, 3.28 is gonna revolve around the Mereketh from Poe 2. We'll have to wait and see what new league entails. My guess is something with time and hourglass stuff - like fill hourglass by killing monsters or a time-based combat.

i sure hope not because if they it is im done with poe in general and ima go back to diablo2 permanently. ever since Chris left and they came out with poe2, poe1 has been downhill. its getting annoying, 3.27 wasn't playable because all my farming strats had been made irrelevant because of the meth tree.

Then theres all the people complaining about int stacking builds, if u dont like ur builds not performing like int stackers, then play the int stacker, quit complaining that a build that works, works. i dont play poe to play builds, ima gambling addict who relies on easy currency for them dopamine drops and then spend that currency on other things to gamble. im pretty sure a bunch of others feel the same, who cares about the build you use, just give us more dopamine drops so I feel something.

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thehookahguy#5601 wrote:

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Well, 3.28 is gonna revolve around the Mereketh from Poe 2. We'll have to wait and see what new league entails. My guess is something with time and hourglass stuff - like fill hourglass by killing monsters or a time-based combat.

i sure hope not because if they it is im done with poe in general and ima go back to diablo2 permanently. ever since Chris left and they came out with poe2, poe1 has been downhill. its getting annoying, 3.27 wasn't playable because all my farming strats had been made irrelevant because of the meth tree.

That's very negative. Don't foget that the launch of 3.27 was very very smooth. Huge improvement over launches in the past. To bad Chris is gone, but farming strats irrelevant is also a trade league problem that can be avoided by not looking at the $ all the time xd The tree was great for one league at least and it is probably going to be nerfed. It might still be good but it might also be Gewennen Gambling type of powerlevel who knows ;P

the current endgame is already aspirational in that its badly balanced and just old content with crazy multipliers meant to challenge/push builds to be stronger.

What we need is real new endgame, not a halfbaked washed up one a real one like conquerors or maven - combined with a real balance patch that guts the current crutches but leaves the rest so the playerbase can find new ones.

Most of the current issues are caused by the game being "solved" until they address that it won't matter what content they add. Content that would challenge a 20-30k ES int stacking trickster will basically invalidate almost every other build.

But all of this is considerable effort guys and they've mentally moved on, expect a few new pieces of content and a mild shuffle only.

I wonder how many people that are complaining about the difficulty of endgame here are actually playing hardcore? Softcore players can just bruteforce through anything, no matter how hard it is. It's not really a problem of the content necessarily, it's the problem with softcore. It's why I've always felt that softcore was absolutely meaningless.

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Emil_kof#7098 wrote:

I wonder how many people that are complaining about the difficulty of endgame here are actually playing hardcore? Softcore players can just bruteforce through anything, no matter how hard it is. It's not really a problem of the content necessarily, it's the problem with softcore. It's why I've always felt that softcore was absolutely meaningless.

And yet they are the ones that complain the most. HC Gauntlet nobody complained(except for not being able to beat hillock maybe, haha)
SC Phrecia with Gauntlet mods: "Omg what did they do, omg mimimimi"
+reoccuring threads about exp penalty being oh so mean and practically demanding that ripping in the game shoudl be meaningless.

Whereas a league like Affliction gets praised while it was absoletly dogsheit for hc when you accidently clicked on the hole in the groudn and were not able to leave the mess.

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Emil_kof#7098 wrote:

I wonder how many people that are complaining about the difficulty of endgame here are actually playing hardcore? Softcore players can just bruteforce through anything, no matter how hard it is. It's not really a problem of the content necessarily, it's the problem with softcore. It's why I've always felt that softcore was absolutely meaningless.

HC is extremely chill content. look at zezoran. he is chill playing HC slowly progressing with 0 dps tin can builds, doing chill farming strats. whereas on SC players do aspirational endgame strats like blue blight, valdos, feared, etc

HC is meaningless and its player count is like 0.0001% of what SC has. HC is just too niche, slow and unexciting to play, same as ruthless