Why T18 Maps Are Necessary for the Future of Endgame PoE

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

Which of these is lie?

More vertical difficulty decreases build variety.
More vertical difficulty creates a need for even more powerful items increasing a need for even more farming time.
Exclusive rewards for content that can be completed by the minority creates oligarchies in the market and excludes entire swaths of playerbase from experiencing parts of the game.
Developing exlusive rewards and uppermost vertical content for the uppermost minority to enjoy consumes dev time that could be instead spent on expanding the game horizontally for far larger subset of playerbase to enjoy.
More vertical difficulty will eventually lead to new defensive/offensive layers being intoduced which will, once again, be presented as option but will in fact be mandatory. Suppression situation 2.0.

I dont see how this is an issue.

Its content that you would otherwise not care to interact with, its content at the higher level of play.

So.... whats the problem exactly? The game needs stuff like this going forward, its not like this will NEVER happen. This is how t17s came around, because it was needed.

Just like the Uber versions of bosses. At some point buddy, we have to move on from baran, and veritania.

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Bosscannon#3325 wrote:

Which of these is lie?

1 More vertical difficulty decreases build variety.
2 More vertical difficulty creates a need for even more powerful items increasing a need for even more farming time.
3 Exclusive rewards for content that can be completed by the minority creates oligarchies in the market and excludes entire swaths of playerbase from experiencing parts of the game.
4 Developing exlusive rewards and uppermost vertical content for the uppermost minority to enjoy consumes dev time that could be instead spent on expanding the game horizontally for far larger subset of playerbase to enjoy.
5 More vertical difficulty will eventually lead to new defensive/offensive layers being intoduced which will, once again, be presented as option but will in fact be mandatory. Suppression situation 2.0.

...sight, okay. Let's go down the list.

1) Depends on how its done, but generally YES. That is the natural progression of all optimization, and won't change for any game, ever. Not everyone and not every build is meant to do everything. It's less of a LIE and more of a complete misunderstanding of the core concept here. But the actual build narrowing isn't anywhere near what you claim it to be and attempt to lie to illustrate. You DON'T need 100+ divs for t17s. You DONT need Spell Suppression. You DONT need xyz build. These things will make it easier, but they are by no means mandatory.

2) Incorrect: the power is already there. That's the whole point.

3) No one ever said it needed exclusive rewards....and it DOESNT need exclusive rewards. As for the second half of your statement: this is ALREADY TRUE of PoE. It will always be true. Players don't reach the same content and already DON'T have access to the same items. But guess what? GUESS WHAT? There's.....drum roll please....TRADE!!!!!!

4) The game is CONSTANTLY being expanded horizontally lol. Every new league is a horizontal expansion rather than vertical. In fact, vertical expansions have been so incredibly rare in the history of PoE that we can probably count on ONE hand the number of times its happened. This is just a ridiculous statement not tethered to PoE reality. Not only that, but vertical expansion plays a direct role on the playerbase.....players LIKE to be challenged, to be pushed. Maybe YOU don't but as a PoE player that puts you squarely in the minority.

This league has "died" so quickly precisely because it was TOO EASY. There wasn't enough content to push the challenge, and there was too much power too soon.

5) I have spent the last 2 or 3 years playing the game up to the highest levels of available difficulty....and I've made a spell suppression character maybe ONCE. This is a straight up bold-faced LIE stemming from your "you need 100 div" yet again. You have no idea how to make characters and that's clear from your comments. But sorry....other players do.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

You mean that debunked bit by Z3ro? Because that was utter nonsense.

If by "debunking" you mean, "willful ignorance, incoherent use of fallacies, general bad faith, sprinkled with emotionally charged sophism", yeah, i got "debunked".

Since we finally dropped the pretense that this has any logical backing to it and it's purely an emotional take on PoE design; by that "logic", why not go straight to T69? It has a much better ring to it.

I mean, when T17s were introduced they... Oh, it sucked. Nvn, carry on. I'm sure this time will be better.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

by that "logic", why not go straight to T69? It has a much better ring to it.

I actually think an endless map progression system might be the BEST possible system for future-proofing the game. Great Idea Zero!

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

by that "logic", why not go straight to T69? It has a much better ring to it.

You mean something like Greater Rifts? Great idea, Zero! I will consider making that a seperate thread in the future. Thank you for the inspiration! :)

Pretty decent idea actually, infinite scaling map system rather than putting all this work into new tiers every single time.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

You mean that debunked bit by Z3ro? Because that was utter nonsense.

If by "debunking" you mean, "willful ignorance, incoherent use of fallacies, general bad faith, sprinkled with emotionally charged sophism", yeah, i got "debunked".

Since we finally dropped the pretense that this has any logical backing to it and it's purely an emotional take on PoE design; by that "logic", why not go straight to T69? It has a much better ring to it.

You certainly dropped all pretense, wow. And you called me "usually reasonable", again wow. T16 is an arbitrary limit that was right at that time, and now isn't. You ask for the top to be cut down, we say that'd kill the game, you call us emotional sophists. Please take a step back and take a good look at what you have just displayed

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

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Nonono. It's not greater rifts. It's Tier. Obviously different.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

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i mean, you clearly don't have any idea how to balance anything, so calling the tiers "an arbitrary limit" just reinforces your lack of understanding.

Indeed, step back and meditate on your reliance on sophisms, fallacies and bad faith while discussing a subject you clearly have no business in suggesting anything.

Thankfully the game is going in the correct direction, they nerfed T17s real good this patch and made the quant/rarity bonuses about on par with T16, as it should be.

Hopefully in 3.28 they completely rework those maps to what they should have always been: a way to get access to uber bosses,nothing more nothing less. There will be no t18 maps, because Valdo maps already exist as the ultimate test for a build.

And if players are getting too OP then the only thing to do is nerf the top-end,nerf OP crafting methods,nerf most popular builds,and maybe delete recombinator too so people can't just item-edit their way to perfect t1 items. That is how you reign in powercreep.

3.27 was a great league because the economy was stable and healthy af, divs were only like 130c at most because there were no blatant exploits and scarab bugs for people to abuse and T17 maps got nerfed so that also helped. Finally a league where a divine isn't 200 chaos lmao


So yeah,as a casual player I can't wait to see more T17 reworks in the future. Those maps were a mistake, and I'm glad to see the game finally turning around and fixing it.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

They are never going core, that league was just an experiment of an idea they had wanted to do for a while, nothing more nothing less lmao

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

There will be no t18 maps, because Valdo maps already exist as the ultimate test for a build.

We'll see about that. Your track record of predicting future patches doesn't exactly instill confidence.