Why T18 Maps Are Necessary for the Future of Endgame PoE

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

It made casuals like me feel extreme FOMO

Get over yourself. FOMO is a "you" problem, not any kind of indication of a "league problem".

If the game is causing that feeling, then it's not in any way my own fault for feeling that way. Its simply the game.

The game isn’t responsible for FOMO, it only offers optional content.
If a player feels FOMO, that comes from their own habits and expectations, which are ultimately their responsibility to manage.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

The game isn’t responsible for FOMO, it only offers optional content.
If a player feels FOMO, that comes from their own habits and expectations, which are ultimately their responsibility to manage.

Nah its the game, and nothing can ever convince me otherwise.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

If the game is causing that feeling, then it's not in any way my own fault for feeling that way. Its simply the game.

It....literally is. The LOTTERY causes people to feel FOMO, but not everyone lets it force them to buy 1000 tickets. Or even 1 ticket. That is a "you" problem and self control over your own feelings.

Ah, the classic "and nothing can convince me otherwise"-style argument.


But even IF the game were "forcing" your emotional response and actions.....its not necessarily a bad thing. FOMO in a GAME can't ever be bad lol. It's a freaking game. With no real world repercussions. Why do you play trade and not SSF toffy? Why are you even arguing in the challenge thread at all? Because your FOMO on challenges and trade and builds are literally what drives you to play any part of this game.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Nah its the game, and nothing can ever convince me otherwise.

If you refuse to consider any evidence, then you’re not debating, you’re just clinging to a conclusion that doesn’t hold up.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

If you refuse to consider any evidence, then you’re not debating, you’re just clinging to a conclusion that doesn’t hold up.

Yes, I never said I'm debating anything with anyone.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Yes, I never said I'm debating anything with anyone.

"Debate" has a definition. You don't need to explicitly SAY you are debating to......be debating lol.

What a comment.

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Additionally, Ignore those forum warriors- white knights that bring up the increased player power as a problem, even commenting about it based on Keepers (lol). Mercenaries and Affliction gave insane power to players and they are in the hall of fame of the most played and most loved leagues. Keepers hit barrel bottom, only the QOL keep them going, and, of course, mid progression or late game "crafting" roulette can't be called player power.

affliction gave massive power to monsters and massive loot to players. i was running "easy" yellow maps and getting stupid amounts of currency and they were the hardest yellow maps ive ever played. players were not rly powerful compared to monsters, the monsters were super hard it just printed divines so people loved it.


the problem with the thinking is that its all relative. keepers is insane player power compared to what people were doing in 2016, its just not as powermad as some other leagues so it feels like a low. thats the problem with giving people insane power, you raise the bar and then that is now normal. if you are going to sell something on pure player power or currency printing rather than fun gameplay then it has to constantly escalate because yesterdays superpowers are todays mundane normal game, so you need to keep that power just to be boring, if you take any of it away it will be "barrel bottom".

it stops being a game so you have to creep the content to match the player power, and then its not rly power. its maybe an illusion of power for people not paying enough attention. the game keeps running on that, like this comment...

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Back on topic though, T17s need to be turned into white non-modifiable maps that drop uber boss fragments, or straight up deleted. T16 should be the best thing, period the end. Otherwise its a neverending spiral, we might aswell add infinitely scaling endgame like Greater Rifts from Diablo.

i have some sympathy for these sentiments, theres some truth there. but what is a t16? a lvl81 zone? so a T17 is a lvl82 zone ya?

well back in the day shipyard and shrine were lvl77 zones, and the courtyard and palace were added and those were lvl78 zones. so how did we even get to t16? t16 itself is part of that never ending spiral weve always been on right? that spiral has allowed people to feel a sense of escalation when really theres a lot of just number inflation that amounts to 2 steps forward 2 steps back happening for much of it.


but the hype has sold the leagues, its kept the larger population engaged.


imo its just how fast do you let it spiral, is it just ramping at a sustainable pace or is it becoming a death spiral? if it goes too fast too far too soon the game starts to fall apart, its already falling apart under too many steps foward without enough backwards in some ways.

personally i dont need the power creep, id rather it wasnt there. but i begrudgingly recognise the wider community probably needs a bit of it to keep the hype up but it comes at a cost and i think they should try and use as little as possible. if we just pick the most gratuitous instances of power creep and keep doing that every league we will be in t37s doing 150,000,000,000 damage hits after a few years and it really will just be D3 meaningless number inflation idiocy.



these 2 comments are like the 2 poles of thinking, despite which one we personally vibe more with i think the game just cant survive if they hard commit to either of these ideas and really GGG is doing the only thing they can do which is try to find a path through the middle inflating both player and monster power in a controlled way and hopefully do so in a sustainable manner that gives an illusion that were more powerful than maybe we really are.


there was nothing sustainable about affliction, it was a degenerate abomination like eating a bucket of ice cream for dinner every night for a month. i dont think 13 years of shrine and shipyard maps would have been sustainable either.

I am fine with t 18s, if t 17s get a rework: no more uber fragments, no more toxic mods, just make them roll higher mods. Make them craftable with scour + alch and so on, so you can run a white one with a janky build if you want the map device slot in ssf. No more gigantous extra % currency etc. Make base drops rates better again. T 17s and 18s should drop like any other maps. No more fancy rules just plain poe.

Uber fragments should drop from the actual Bosses just like Uber Elder fragments. Gives players a reason to run the normal tier bosses and the Uber farmers can still buy them on trade if they want, they don't actually have to one tap normal bosses if they don't want to.

If t18 maps are introduced in a natural progression, t17 can preserve its distinct identity instead of being pushed into becoming the new t16, with t18 simply taking over the role of the new t17.
In this setup, t18 would sit above the current t17 difficulty, while t17 itself would remain largely unchanged, depending on how GGG ultimately approaches the their own rework. GGG has already hinted the rework will largely consist of adjustments to the mod pool, as a result, the overall structure of t17 would likely remain much the same as it is now, just with a completely different set of modifiers.

I also appreciate the decision to restrict t17 maps to being rolled exclusively with Chaos Orbs, as this creates a much needed currency sink. Preventing these maps from being run completely white also feels appropriate, especially given how trivial the scarab already makes it if the only goal is unlocking the map device slot.
If the maps remain excessively difficult even after removing prefix or suffix modifiers, that is a clear signal that a character simply has no business engaging with that content. Consequently, such a character would almost certainly gain little to no value from additional juice in t16 maps, which would likely already be beyond what the build can comfortably handle.

The solution is not T18, even though I agree with the essence of your message, the solution is nerfing player power, heavily.

But since players will always choose the path of least resistance, and since people are already whining about not being getting enough loot, not being able to get a 6-link on day 2, etc ; I fear that such a much needed change will never happen...

Path of Exile 1 has been getting ever so increasingly casualized for a few years now with each new league release, and I don't see that trend changing.


Them going "ballistic" on balance changes would be more than welcome... sadly it seems they are refusing to do that. They probably deem it too risky and therefore they will keep the game in maintenance mode for the next few years.


(ps: revert Breach 2.0)