GGG, please reconsider Risk Scarab limit

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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Beavith#5056 wrote:

Not everyone who stacks mirrors are nefarious RMT entities.

His point wasn't even RMT-related.....he thinks players simply collect everything and do nothing with it.

No injection into the market at all.

Which is downright hilarious. Hell....even the nefarious RMT entities are ultimately HELPING the low and middle class players tangentially.

Ahh, I got RMT out of it when he alluded to what people do with such large stacks and don't participate in the economy.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

You will care about it once your crafted and T0 uniques will become more expensive. Even more so now with async trade. Less friction equals more accessibility which supports overall inflation. I'm sure you'll enjoy your 400D Mageblood.

Don't make builds that depend on T0 uniques and minmax crafted items, don't need to worry about them getting expensive.

Hot take: Chase uniques and minmax rares shouldn't exist. You people wouldn't be complaining that the game is too easy, necessitating that ubers and T17s to exist in the first place, if GGG didn't let the top end of player power get out of control.

I don't know about you but chase uniques and minmax rares are precisely what makes this genre appealing. No one plays arpg's to chase rare items that are 5% better than your current one.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

Again, you're pulling things out of thin air to give your argument weight. This is about Risk farming and heavy investment mapping, not Trickster or FRoSS.

People doing risk farming and heavy investment farming are running trickster and FRoSS builds, among other top end metas. You're not going to see heavy strike builds engaging in it, outside of the less-than-a-handful of madlads who are ride-or-die for it.

I did it on Blight of Contagion, Flame Golems of the Hordes and Cyclone. From shoestring rares to 800D+ in items over the spam of 2 months. If you wanted to, you could do the same. The flavor of the league or meta doesn't change that. All I hear here are excuses.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

Blame GGG for their shitty engine, not the player. Besides, by that logic we're removing party play and Blight by 3.28 - right? Right?

Party play should be nerfed into the ground so it's no longer the de-facto choice to get the most loot. Removed is unnecessary.

Blight would be less of a problem if GGG's idea of loot was piling on more quantity instead of quality, incentivizing the need to minmax the amount of loot you can get in any content. If they cut the mob density of Blight in half then shuffled the rewards around, it would do miracles in engine performance.

That I agree with.

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Beavith#5056 wrote:

Ahh, I got RMT out of it when he alluded to what people do with such large stacks and don't participate in the economy.

The RMT folks are selling their currency by the thousands....that's why its a thing. Why would they be holding onto it indefinitely?

Not commenting on the positives or negatives of doing it....but at least from that perspective it doesn't make any sense that the RMT-ers are sitting on their items. To be an RMT-er means to be selling them lol.

And they most assuredly are NOT doing what he suggested: moving the wealth between yacht owners to use his metaphor. The people BUYING items via RMT are not themselves RMT-ers.....that also makes no sense.


There exists NO cabal of 1%-ers that simply move items amongst themselves. That is tinfoil hat to the max.

in the future - dont allude, ask, it is far better way of doing things

at some point, maybe you werent there yet, you get so many mirrors (raw and liquid) that there is nothing besides a) gambling it all out for content b) that thing mentioned above c) let it rot because you actually value time spent killing mobs more than making 14th or 40th mirror d) farm for the sake of farming, burning 10s of divs per map to make so much loot you cannot pick it all up - but that brings us to the point of WHAT THE F.. to do with all this money?

i know there are people whos sole motivation in life is wealth - i accept it as a fact but for me it is alien concept. maybe there is my problem - for me farming the same content, with the same build to get richer is 100% waste of my most precious resource - my own time, because it does not bring me any joy

trying new stuff, facing challenges, solving things - yep, thats for me. but holly fuck why would i ever farm for Nth mirror

i assume - maybe I should ask? - that there is the fundamental rift.

my opinion stands - .1% bring pretty much nothing to mid-class gamers, you might think you are doing people good by buying 2d scarabs - but these werent farmed by plebs, they were farmed in T17 Risk rotations by the same .1%. it is closed economy with hardly ANY trickle down effect

ive been there in Phrecia. decided to print money with Idols. and I knew that the good precursor idols i bought were from .1%, the gold rotas i did were with .1%, and my resulting idols were bought by .1%. i made 10s and 100s of divs without any interaction with non-.1% because they had nothing to offer to me and I had nothing they could afford

even the failed crafts are either 50d or FAR overpriced compared to crafting costs (if these people bother to accept trade request at all, you are not leaving lucky Risk map for 2d trade)

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Why do people always use the complete opposite sides of the power scales when it comes to comparisons like that? I'm sure you can make the same argument using a realistic example of an average build that people actually play, for the honesty of your argument's sake.

The answer is irrelevant. The further you stray from what is considered the meta, the less people are (capable of) engaging in risk farming and heavily juiced maps. People running trickster and FRoSS builds are either doing so, because they like it, or because it's the most efficient build for farming top end content which is the most likely case. Nerf them and nerf/delete the items that enable it, suddenly it stops becoming a problem. Repeat for every other build top end farmers use then complain about the game being too easy.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

About your hot take: removing high-end gear from the game will... kill it. Discussions like these, if they do anything at all, at least show why game design should be left to those who pursue it as a professional endeavor. Players are great at finding problems, but solutions? Not so much.

But your hot take at least goes into the same direciton as the thread goes, which is aspirational goals. Take those away and you end up with mid-tier slop with no longevity.

That is absolutely not true. I've been around since before Headhunter existed, and nobody has ever complained that the one thing PoE really needed was an exceedingly rare item to grind forever for. The game would've died a long time ago if that were true.

Hell, Path of Exile 2 has almost no chase uniques, and it has a much higher player count than the first game ever had. I don't think T0s and top end crafts matter as much as you think they do.

And to add further to this, if what was said in an interview during Expedition league still holds true, the bulk of players quit every league after beating act 10. Nobody's getting a Svalinn or Mageblood before killing Kitava.

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sidtherat#1310 wrote:

in the future - dont allude, ask, it is far better way of doing things

no need....the way you wrote your post illustrates your entire point.

And again, with this post, your short-sightedness is so obvious. You back yourself into multiple corners with your own reasoning. And then rather than take that single extra step of understanding, you simply just stop as if its the brick wall ending that makes your post irrefutable fact.

It doesn't.


The players you describe (and snarkily now try to personally attack with it) simply don't exist even to make up .1% of the overall players. You can reduce that to any fraction you want. We had started off with 1% btw.


Players who exist ONLY to crush monsters with a fully maxed out build, beyond even 1 singular week of them playing the game, especially in a league.....are exceedingly rare. To the point of them functionally not existing. THESE aren't the players that help the economy, sure.

But they also have no business even being mentioned in a REAL talk about how the high end helps the entire economy flow. That is why your posts are so utterly misguided.


You are absolutely LASER focused on the ultimate extreme example, and attaching to it a degree of "fact-ness" that it has absolutely no business possessing. Even among the small group of players capable of doing full risk scarab farming.....this type of player represents a tiny fraction.

I always like to use cars as examples:

The reason why we have cars that sell for 30k is BECAUSE there are cars that sell for 200k. 500k. A million.

If there were NO high end, the bottom would RISE in cost. It always does. That is the nature of "value" and competition.



And the car example actually has more restrictions than the in-game economy, which this behavior is FAR MORE observable because the percentages of players at each "tier" is a little more balanced than real life.




Take your 50d scarab absurd example: the only reason that scarab has that value is because enough players are buying it at that cost, because they assume they can RECOUP that cost by selling the things they gain. ALL of the things they gain. It's not just a rotation of the same 50d scarab......

well. so what is your input to the economy?

you buying maps in bulk or scarabs in bulk? you buy them from top-players, normies wont have enough, esp the rarer ones. buying 144 16.5 jungle valleys in one go - that wont come from 'pleb' players

you doing handouts of failed crafts for (un)reasonable money? how many crafts you actually do - 1? 10? how does that number compare to game population?

do you accept 10c trades? where is your cutoff because most 1% hardly sell anything to 'pleb players' because they have no economical incentive to leave their multi-div maps to 'earn' chaos

1% filter out most div cards, 99% of uniques, pretty much every sub 100c scarab, most of the currency, all rares.. and what you actually buy - you buy from other lookalikes.

describe me how you actually, once you reach that point when leaving the map is measured in divs, are interacting with the general economy?

i stand by it - general economy wouldnt notice if that said 1 or .1% suddenly dissappeared. sure price of luxury yachts would go up (magebloods and purity sublimes and stuff) but.. who cares?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

I always like to use cars as examples:

The reason why we have cars that sell for 30k is BECAUSE there are cars that sell for 200k. 500k. A million.

If there were NO high end, the bottom would RISE in cost. It always does. That is the nature of "value" and competition.



And the car example actually has more restrictions than the in-game economy, which this behavior is FAR MORE observable because the percentages of players at each "tier" is a little more balanced than real life.




Take your 50d scarab absurd example: the only reason that scarab has that value is because enough players are buying it at that cost, because they assume they can RECOUP that cost by selling the things they gain. ALL of the things they gain. It's not just a rotation of the same 50d scarab......

That logic is flawed for Path of Exile. There is no different versions of Headhunter belts, neither is there another shield like Svalinn and its lucky blocks. The only T0 that works is Mageblood, but that's more comparing a lamborghini to a rusty chevrolet.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

About your hot take: removing high-end gear from the game will... kill it. Discussions like these, if they do anything at all, at least show why game design should be left to those who pursue it as a professional endeavor. Players are great at finding problems, but solutions? Not so much.

But your hot take at least goes into the same direciton as the thread goes, which is aspirational goals. Take those away and you end up with mid-tier slop with no longevity.

That is absolutely not true. I've been around since before Headhunter existed, and nobody has ever complained that the one thing PoE really needed was an exceedingly rare item to grind forever for. The game would've died a long time ago if that were true.

Hell, Path of Exile 2 has almost no chase uniques, and it has a much higher player count than the first game ever had. I don't think T0s and top end crafts matter as much as you think they do.

And to add further to this, if what was said in an interview during Expedition league still holds true, the bulk of players quit every league after beating act 10. Nobody's getting a Svalinn or Mageblood before killing Kitava.

Do you seriously have to invoke pre-release Path of Exile to make an argument about chase items? You not having heard "a single person saying you need an exceedingly rare item to grind forever for" is an example of the anecdotal evidence fallacy. Rather, you should judge the merit of the argument presented. Your personal background matters as much as mine when you can instead analyse what value having aspirational gear brings to the game.

Let's start with something that even you can agree with: gear is the cornerstone of character power.

Better gear enables you to tackle more challenging content, which in turn is more rewarding and marks a stepping stone in your character's overall progression, as you now are able to clear a bar that previously you couldn't, or struggled to reach.

The pursuit of stronger and better gear fuels the economy because there's a value for the really good stuff. Chase uniques inherently are made scarce by their rarity, or the difficulty of the content required to acquire them. This in turn motivates players to make stronger characters to get there. To craft better items, you need the currency and knowledge to craft them. Step by step new goals are set.

Take that away, and you remove so much economic depth, cut away from potential character progression and reduce the game's overall replayability. ARPGs are a power fantasy and power spikes are fun. These items are the backbone of PoE's build diversity, no matter how you look at things. With how much people whine about player retention, your hot take is just short-sighted and lacking in understanding for what keeps most players around.