GGG what's the point of having any stats in the game if they don't do anything?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Or
Start a new build and go a totally different direction from the ground up.

A perfect advice in the already dead league...

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

**My attempted helpful thought**

Sadly you can only help people who want to be helped. They'd first have to admit to themselves that there is a problem before they can take steps solving them, but discussing immutable facts is more appealing it seems.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

People love creating and coming to threads like these complaining about how complicated the game is and how useless defenses are. In fact, short of a few op and genuinely complicated interactions, the game is VERY easy to understand. Most information is given to you both in terms of in-game information and personal (observational) experience. "Complicated" and "useless" occur when PoE players have ceased giving any thought or attention to the game, let streamers and content creators do all the thinking for them, and simply expect everything to work out from 0 to uber in a WEEK.

while i agree that game is trivial once the veil drops i actually think you are very wrong on its 'face value'

few examples: game PRETENDS that defences from rare items matter. they dont (except for outliers). if you chest has 400 or 2400 armour - it means jack shit. if you do not run Determination, you have no armour. in corner case - when you wear ALL ARMOUR items with 2-3 AR prefixes - you barely match Determination + aura effect + granite

Armour when stacked is ok, but you wont get it from REGULAR gear

and if you want it from rare gear - get EVASION gear, convert to armour.. or get from Memory Vault or any of other 'get Armour from thin air' options. any place BUT rare items with high defensive values


second thing - if you want stuff that is rare based, there are like 3 setups that work: spell suppression with something, spell suppression with different something or both combined. going endgame (baby endgame: T16) without using some unique based cheat code is otherwise very, very death prone despite doing everything 'right'. max block + 85% all res? youll die. AR/EV trough the roof but no spell suppress? youll die. max leech/fortify with somethin else? youll die etc etc

the basic stuff that players are given is simply not good enough, even with mirror tier rares you just wont cut it. it changes completely once you add your cheat code: Progenesis, Defiance of Destiny - you know, the things that give you zero 'defences' but actually keep you alive better than standard stuff. phys taken as trumps armour. spell suppression trumps max res.

and sure, uniques are great to use, i was just making a point: the 'default' stuff, the obvious mechanics are just crap unless you stack them trough the nose or use the busted one (spell suppress).

as for the OPs character i still think he is using some broken guide because MoM on 200 life low-life char makes NO SENSE

^a lot of not true in that post....

I have NEVER built a character with SS. Ever. Guess what? I've done perfectly fine in ALL content, from sim30 to max juiced t16s to regular bossing. I don't bother with ubers because I hate it and why would I do what I hate? Would I do better with SS? Likely. But that doesn't matter, there is ALWAYS going to be a "better" choice. That's what "experience" is.

You set the bar of "success" so absurdly high that it only matters to 1% or less of all players and effectively ignore everything else the game offers. You also ignored the part of my post where I also said..."expect everything to work from 0 to ubers". The whole point is you CAN'T nor should you EXPECT that to be the case. You can't possibly discuss defenses for the masses meaningfully by approaching it from the tippy top down.

You personally put in the time, and you learned the "best" mechanics to push the limits of the game. That doesn't mean those are the ONLY way to approach the game. Nor does it mean that all gradations below what you think is best is totally useless or fake.

And regarding baseline stats on items: the very first lesson you learn about PoE is "stack multipliers". This applies to EVERY SINGLE THING including armour or evasion. Why would anyone who can think beyond at least Act 3 not know this most basic fact of the game? This does not require a wiki, a walkthrough, or someone telling you how to do it. It's handed to you on a silver platter in the form of support gems. Literally trained on this starting at level 4. No one looks at their 200 dps weapon and wonders how or why they are dealing 500,000 damage. The second lesson? Run an aura that compliments your build. If you can, run TWO auras that compliment your build. If you are dying and are armour based....its LOGICAL to run Determination. This isn't some mysterious ultra-confusing thing. And while it might not be AS effective as stacking evasion and converting it, it STILL works (and works WELL) for 99% of the game.

Basically, your assessment is a combination of three things: an impossibly high bar to measure up to, a willing decision to ignore non-perfect defenses, and a complete underestimation of other people's ability to think. You make massive leaps in your post that I am NOT because they are wholely unnecessary until you decide you want to push extreme content.

I can understand someone who is 100% new to the entire genre of arpgs having a lot more difficulty....but you need to give credit to the fact that most people who fall upon this game are NOT new to the genre. They know the gist of stats and stacking before they even wake up on the Wraeclast shore. And if they don't, there's a HELP menu! How long has it been since anyone actually used that before jumping on the forum?!?!

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FutureFear wrote:

Seriously what's the point of having capped resist, a ton of evasion and energy shield, mana and mind over matter + arcane cloak if you're just getting one shot?

Evasion: 21046 (72% evade chance)

extra:
Armor: 1445 (30% Phys reduction -> with endurance charges)
Block chance: 22%
Spell suppression chance: 10% (flask)

WHY doesn't any of the above seem to help prevent one shots or help against obvious things dealing a certain type of damage?

In short, because it doesn't appear you have done anything to support your defenses.
Example 1. You have 72% evasion chance, what are you doing to support this?
Are you blinding your enemies reducing their accuracy?
Do you curse enfeeble on hit to reduce their accuracy?
The cap is 90% so you either need to have 78,200 evasion or do something/anything to reduce the accuracy of enemies.

Example 2. You have 1445 armour which is 20% physical damage reduction, prior to endurance charges reducing the damage further.
Again what are you doing to support this? running immortal call or enfeeble to reduce the damage, making your armour value meaningful?
Again, the cap here is 90%

Sounds like you just put grace + determination on as an aura and demand that's enough to tank endgame content.

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sidtherat wrote:

few examples: game PRETENDS that defences from rare items matter. they dont (except for outliers). if you chest has 400 or 2400 armour - it means jack shit. if you do not run Determination, you have no armour. in corner case - when you wear ALL ARMOUR items with 2-3 AR prefixes - you barely match Determination + aura effect + granite

Armour when stacked is ok, but you wont get it from REGULAR gear

I get that you think armor from gear should be relatively more important than from auras, and i agree to an extent but honestly you are exaggerating to an absurd degree. Depending on how much increased you have the difference between a 400 and 2400 armor base will end up at 5-10k armor. I certainly do think that means something. And that's one gear piece. Besides, if your plan is to push armor for phys defense and/or other purposes, why the hell would you want to go with armor on your gear OR determination? The whole premise makes no sense. Determination is a multiplier, and a powerful one for sure, but ultimately it does little if you don't have base armor and increase in decent amounts. Armor is a defense that benefits from investment, the more you push it the better it becomes. It's not about "I can get 10k armor with determination and some random gear" because 10k armor is the bare minimum and hardly worth the 50% reservation. If you go for armor you should go all the way and aim for 50k+. I strongly suspect that armors bad reputation is mostly caused by this kind of thinking. People throw random gear on a build, mostly not even using armor bases, add a determination for good measure and call it a day with 10k armor and then complain about getting oneshot by phys hit's and claiming that armor is useless. It's like having 10% spell suppression and complaining it doesn't prevent oneshots from spells.


Same thing with the "rares don't cut it" statement. Yes, there are amazing uniques that increase buildpower tremendously if used right. But saying you can't get anywhere with rares is just wrong. You can use full rare gear combined with divine flesh and SS to tank uber attacks to some extent. 800 pdps 2 hander are sufficient for 20-30 mio dps, possibly more. Even onehanders can get that amount of damage depending on the setup and without mirror tier gear. Maybe not on a pure phys cleave build or the like but ele claws are also rare weapons and their damage ceiling is quite high considering their budget. Rares are certainly more expensive than budget cheats like paradoxica to get comparable results but they still work well and there is a lot of room between 200 dps 1 hander and mirror tier stuff. Besides, why would you want to use rare only gear to begin with if adding a unique here and there makes your build that much stronger? Sure, rare only gear isn't ideal, but compared to unique only gear it's much better so i really don't see the point aside from trying to be a special snowflake.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

If you go for armor you should go all the way and aim for 50k+.
snowflake.

Agree with this post, just wanted to specifythe values.
24,208 is the number you want to achieve for 90% PDR from armour in a tier 1 against lv68 enemies
50,802 is the number you want to achieve for 90% PDR from armour in a tier 16 against lv83 enemies.
Guardian/Pinnacle requires 96,959 armour required for 90%
Uber Pinnacle requires 131,694 armour required for 90%

If someone is able to demonstrate how to achieve these values, it would be good to see the multitudes of ways to achieve these cap values.

im regularly walking around with 1mil armor, 90res and it doesnt feel that great.

except for unbreakable everything else is suxx.

my point was and is: the 'lid value' of what you get from items is a lie

AR from boots and gloves is irrelevant, it doesnt matter
helmet top roll is ~1000 (for the price of all prefixes)
body can go to ~3000, also foregoing everything else
shield depending on a league also to around 2500 (dont remember exactly)
belt, rings - ~450 each and 35% inc roll on an amulet

these values are pathetic without 'tricks' and even if tricked, you are FAR BETTER of doing 'phys as ele'. rare chest with 3000 Armour looks cool but is actually a terrible item. crafted 12% taken as ele does MORE to the build than any of the %AR rolls. +1 curse does more (just slot Enfeeble/Temp Chains). last prefix might be life or something else (for mastery). add in implicits for aura effect and you have your perfect AR chest that actually has no AR rolls. in fact, it doesnt need to be AR base at all.

this is bad, this should change - and it is mostly because of that AR formula that eats all you do if you do not go all in (that keystone with 50% cap kinda helps with that but only 'kinda')

EV formula is different, you actually CAN get reasonable EV chance from gear alone, sprinkle in Blind and do well without Grace. with AR - tough luck. the only case when you could get enough AR without Determination is Jugg with quad value (affliction, inaccessible now) and crazy chest

GGG had a stance about 'mandatory' things - i wonder what they are going to do with one of if not the most obnoxious example - Determination. because AR without Determination is simply irrelevant - the formula's scaling clearly assumes you have it on

also, the same formula HEAVILY promotes 'phys as ele' mechanic, because AR has diminishing returns (works best on weak hits, and it is not linear) - vs big hits 'phys as ele' is very effective because it feeds lower value to AR formula, again this formula is not linear so any reduction in input results in much higher AR efficiency

i havent done the math but i wonder if lightning coil + Determination ALONE isnt better than 100k armour vs 'big hits'. it actually might be

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sidtherat wrote:

i havent done the math but i wonder if lightning coil + Determination ALONE isnt better than 100k armour vs 'big hits'. it actually might be

The math is simple, lightning coil halves the amount of armour required to reach 90% PDR.
The math;
lv83 mobs require 50,802 raw armour - more on this, you can lower this requirement with few tricks, one is endurance charges.
3x endurance charges requires 20,523 armour
4x endurance charges requires 16,526 armour
Another cool trick, is run enfeeble, then you only need 11,038 armour because it brings lv83 mobs down to lv76 mob damage.

With lightning coil, you only need 25,401 armour because half the damage is converted to elemental, example hit from lv83 = 1192 / 2 = 596
What this means is a lv83 mobs hit you as hard as a lv69 significant
Cloak of Flame is the same, reduces average phys damage hit to 715 which is a lv73 mob.

However, none of the raw calculations factor in vulnerability, crushed, maim, intimidated, the myriad of physical penetration which is why lightning coil will always reign supreme.