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Based on the last PoB : https://pastebin.com/VGbwDFx6
If I lower the attack speed I get on my staff from 22% to 19% attack speed, I'm at 7.48/s attack rate on cyclone.
Or I can lower the attack speed on the gloves and aim at 10% attack speed and faster attack lvl 18 and I hit 7.49/s attack rate.
So I should be good, right? <3
Yeah, that would be perfect. But I still suggest to look into Divergent SHR: a 20% quality gem will give your relics a cooldown of 0.33 sec, instead of 0.4. This means effectively a 21% more damage. With that, your attack speed breakpoints would be 6.06 and 9.09.
Oh really? I didn't know that.
- So with a regular Holy relics, Cyclone's attack rate must be slightly below 2.5 // 5.0 // 7.5 // 10.0
- And with a divergent one, Cyclone's attack rate must be slightly below 3.03 // 6.06 // 9.09.
Got it. <3
Big thanks man.
Divergent Holy relic trigger CD will drop down to 0.23 if you use Enhance support aswell, but i think in 3.16 its better to play with newly buffed awakening minion dmg and brutality supports.
Teschio - I see on Musseolini's POB he uses attack speed from multiple sources - 22% on warstaff, gloves have pseudo 5link with lvl20 faster attacks + 14% inc attack speed mod aswell and u said that getting more attack speed usually isnt the way to go, while on your POB you have no attack speed anywhere. I am still unsure on whats the correct way here, since I really want to min-max my guardian in 3.16. Do you have any idea where the massive DPS difference comes from between 2 POB's?
Have you guys seen the Determination gem changes already?
Personally will league start this for the 2nd time and will transition to necromancer after I have tested guardian & obtained near endgame gear.
Last edited by Weatherboy420 on Oct 21, 2021, 8:32:33 AM
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Posted byWeatherboy420on Oct 21, 2021, 6:08:18 AM
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Oh really? I didn't know that.
- So with a regular Holy relics, Cyclone's attack rate must be slightly below 2.5 // 5.0 // 7.5 // 10.0
- And with a divergent one, Cyclone's attack rate must be slightly below 3.03 // 6.06 // 9.09.
Got it. <3
Big thanks man.
For Divergent, it depends on the quality. Every 1% quality gives 1% increased cooldown recovery rate. 20% quality will give you 3.03 etc, but if you get more quality, like with an Enhance support, the optimal trigger rate is going to be different.
Oh yeah, got it.
I tested on the PoB and something doesn't feel right.
https://pastebin.com/FEZ0vd0a : Full endgame setup (with a default holy relic lvl 22), I can change the attack speed on my gloves from 14% to 10% and have an attack rate of cyclone to 7.49/s => Therefore all is good.
https://pastebin.com/1SAdn1RN : Full endgame setup (with a divergent holy relic lvl 21), in order to achieve an attack rate of 6.06/s for Cyclone, I must get rid of the attack speed on the Staff completely but my holy relic lose a tons of average damage and I also need to lower the attack speed on my gloves from 14% to 9%.
I must have gotten something wrong because a divergent holy relic should be an increased in DPS but in my case it is not since I lower my attack speed to obtain a good cyclone's attack rate.
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Posted byIzmabilon Oct 21, 2021, 6:08:21 AM
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Oh yeah, got it.
I tested on the PoB and something doesn't feel right.
https://pastebin.com/FEZ0vd0a : Full endgame setup (with a default holy relic lvl 22), I can change the attack speed on my gloves from 14% to 10% and have an attack rate of cyclone to 7.49/s => Therefore all is good.
https://pastebin.com/1SAdn1RN : Full endgame setup (with a divergent holy relic lvl 21), in order to achieve an attack rate of 6.06/s for Cyclone, I must get rid of the attack speed on the Staff completely but my holy relic lose a tons of average damage and I also need to lower the attack speed on my gloves from 14% to 9%.
I must have gotten something wrong because a divergent holy relic should be an increased in DPS but in my case it is not since I lower my attack speed to obtain a good cyclone's attack rate.
There is a mistake with the staff: in the second one, you have a staff with "+1 to level of socketed MELEE gems", non all gems. This results in -2 SHR level (one for the SHR itself, one for Empower). That's the reason why it looks like less damage. If you fix that, and use gems of the same level, the damage per hit is absolutely identical (normal quality doesn't give damage but AoE), but the Divergent one casts more frequently resulting in 21% more damage.
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Posted byTeschiozon Oct 21, 2021, 9:59:21 AM
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Ohhh so now it should be good then => https://pastebin.com/cWHJQGXb
Even with a divergent holy relic 20/20 I have less average hit but since I hit more frequently it is actually more DPS. Now if I can get a 21/20 divergent holy relics then this is a big big increase in DPS.
And it makes the staff easier to craft since we do not need the attack speed with the divergent holy relics.
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Posted byIzmabilon Oct 21, 2021, 10:09:34 AM
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Divergent Holy relic trigger CD will drop down to 0.23 if you use Enhance support aswell, but i think in 3.16 its better to play with newly buffed awakening minion dmg and brutality supports.
Teschio - I see on Musseolini's POB he uses attack speed from multiple sources - 22% on warstaff, gloves have pseudo 5link with lvl20 faster attacks + 14% inc attack speed mod aswell and u said that getting more attack speed usually isnt the way to go, while on your POB you have no attack speed anywhere. I am still unsure on whats the correct way here, since I really want to min-max my guardian in 3.16. Do you have any idea where the massive DPS difference comes from between 2 POB's?
Have you guys seen the Determination gem changes already?
Personally will league start this for the 2nd time and will transition to necromancer after I have tested guardian & obtained near endgame gear.
In his original PoB Mooseolini uses Static Strike to trigger. With Static Strike, attack speed is always better, since it doesn't mess with the trigger rate: the frequency of hits depends only on SS level itself. He has a gem setup for Cyclone too, but the tree and gear are not build with that in mind (he attacks too fast for cyclone, 7.78 attack speed).
For the difference in damage, keep in mind that I use Aspect of the Spider too, which boosts damage. I also have higher increased minion damage from the staff (I used the minion damage essence on a fractured "+1 to socketed gems" staff. As I said, this PoB is adapted from my actual character this league, the gear is what I have currently), from the helm enchant (I have 40% increased damage, he has 24% increased AoE), and I use Vulnerability on a ring. That's why my damage is higher.
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Posted byTeschiozon Oct 21, 2021, 10:14:08 AM
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Ohhh so now it should be good then => https://pastebin.com/cWHJQGXb
Even with a divergent holy relic 20/20 I have less average hit but since I hit more frequently it is actually more DPS. Now if I can get a 21/20 divergent holy relics then this is a big big increase in DPS.
And it makes the staff easier to craft since we do not need the attack speed with the divergent holy relics.
Yeah, 21/20 Divergent is great. I got mine by buying a bunch of Divergent SHR (generally lvl 16, the level they appear in Heist) for cheap, something like 15c each. I leveled them to 20 in my offhand, then I increased quality to 20, then I vaaled them. Out of 6 gems I actually ended up with 2 at lvl 21, one with 20% qual and the other one with less. I sold the second for maybe 70c, and the corrupted 20/20 ones for 20c each.
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Posted byTeschiozon Oct 21, 2021, 10:19:34 AM
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Ohhh so now it should be good then => https://pastebin.com/cWHJQGXb
Even with a divergent holy relic 20/20 I have less average hit but since I hit more frequently it is actually more DPS. Now if I can get a 21/20 divergent holy relics then this is a big big increase in DPS.
And it makes the staff easier to craft since we do not need the attack speed with the divergent holy relics.
Yeah, 21/20 Divergent is great. I got mine by buying a bunch of Divergent SHR (generally lvl 16, the level they appear in Heist) for cheap, something like 15c each. I leveled them to 20 in my offhand, then I increased quality to 20, then I vaaled them. Out of 6 gems I actually ended up with 2 at lvl 21, one with 20% qual and the other one with less. I sold the second for maybe 70c, and the corrupted 20/20 ones for 20c each.
Oh good idea!
So just to confirm if I get it right.
I can invest in attack speed as long as it doesn't mess up the attack rate of cyclone.
- With a regular holy relic, the attack rate of cyclone needs to be slightly lower than 2.5/s // 5.0/s // 7.5/s // 10./s. ==> With no attack speed on my build, I end up with an attack rate of 4.1/s.
- With a divergent holy relic, the attack rate of cyclone needs to be slightly lower than 3.03/s // 6.06/s // 9.09/s. ==> With 9% attack speed on my gloves, I end up with an attack rate of 6.01/s.
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Posted byIzmabilon Oct 21, 2021, 10:28:59 AM
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1. Does the Holy relic nova spell count as an attack?
2. Does the Holy relic get any benefits from Flesh offering cast/attack speed?
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Posted byBalzzaron Oct 21, 2021, 10:29:09 AM
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Determination. But I don't think it's worth it. You can get freeze and chill immunity from boots if you like (freeze immunity can be obtained from Brine King too now), and flasks that trigger once shocked and ignited to remove those. The other ones are so rare you generally don't have to worry about them. But if you are set on getting ailment immunity, you can drop Determination for Purity of Elements. Just know that your physical damage mitigation will be lower.
The value of purity of elements vs determination will also depend on whatever +%armor or ailment immunity can appear as scourge mods. Aswell as how strong and rare those mods are. I think many build guides will add a scourge mod section later.
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Posted bykolpoon Oct 21, 2021, 11:34:12 AM
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Oh good idea!
So just to confirm if I get it right.
I can invest in attack speed as long as it doesn't mess up the attack rate of cyclone.
- With a regular holy relic, the attack rate of cyclone needs to be slightly lower than 2.5/s // 5.0/s // 7.5/s // 10./s. ==> With no attack speed on my build, I end up with an attack rate of 4.1/s.
- With a divergent holy relic, the attack rate of cyclone needs to be slightly lower than 3.03/s // 6.06/s // 9.09/s. ==> With 9% attack speed on my gloves, I end up with an attack rate of 6.01/s.
Easy way to figure it out: look at the cast rate of relics (for example 0.33 seconds), call this number A, calculate B = 1 / A (in this case, 1 / 0.33 = 3.03), and this number or its exact multiples (2B, 3B, etc.) is the attack speed you need to get close to, without ever getting over it.
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Posted byTeschiozon Oct 21, 2021, 12:13:55 PM
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