[3.5]FJTHEBEAST| DW Nebuloch Chieftain Molten Strike |90% Dmg Mitigation|9M Shaper DPS| All content

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Xavathos wrote:

Challenge accepted, when I get home.

We are just discussing things :)

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fjtheknight wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Challenge accepted, when I get home.

We are just discussing things :)

I know, and so will I. But with proof, so I don't have to convince anyone.

There's so much bias going around here. It helps to stay objective in a discussion. Hence, challenge accepted. :)

IS it necessary to use molten strike ? In 3.4 consecrated path seems good with fire conversion, aoe and free 6% regen. Can I use consecrated path instead of molten strike ?

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Oberver wrote:

IS it necessary to use molten strike ? In 3.4 consecrated path seems good with fire conversion, aoe and free 6% regen. Can I use consecrated path instead of molten strike ?

Yes you can. It clears maps very well but for Shpaer/Uber Elder I dont think that it has enough damage. I have already added it to PoB.

Alright, so I've made, since we're going there now, an unrealistic end-game build with pretty much GG gear for both classes with an (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) optimised passive tree. Feel free to work your own Molten Strike setup into this if you want, I don't plan to use it at all.

Their damage is the same, but under different circumstances.
Chieftain has more damage on their totem and can use Atziri's Promise as a 3rd damage flask since no Avatar of Fire, but they also HAVE TO in order to have slightly higher damage than the Juggernaut. Flasks don't last forever, unless you portal a lot, which then gives the Juggernaut the clear advantage when it comes to generating extremely important endurance charges.


The Juggernaut: https://pastebin.com/bce5Dp9p

+ 13k more armour
+ Better physical and elemental damage mitigation (10% phys, 8% elemental, 5% all)
+ Gains life regen based on physical damage prevented (this could bring his regen in line with Chief when taking seriously hard physical hits)
+ Very easy to cap chaos resistance
+ Extremely easy to apply max endurance charges at all times
+ Can use rallying cry for extra damage (NOT counted in test)

- Needs to crit in order to keep up EO for damage (using CWDT/BV helps a lot with this)


The Chieftain: https://pastebin.com/AhHR6V5t

+ 300 more max life
+ 650 life/sec more regen
+ Very easy to cap elemental resistances
+ Always keep your damage up, as you don't rely on crits to proc EO

- Has trouble getting to max charges on single target bosses without mobs or after a portal (without those you are quite vulnerable)
- Requires enduring cry to keep charges up at times (NOT counted in test)
- More expensive (at this level of currency though... we can forgive this one)


So there. Well, what do you know? Both are great and both have their up and downsides in the very GG state of the build.

Personally, I'll still hand this one to the Juggernaut, solely based on how easy it is to generate charges and how extremely important those charges are in this build.

I hope we can now bury the Atziri's Disfavour and go on with our lives. ;)

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Xavathos wrote:

Alright, so I've made, since we're going there now, an unrealistic end-game build with pretty much GG gear for both classes with an (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) optimised passive tree. Feel free to work your own Molten Strike setup into this if you want, I don't plan to use it at all.

1) No, we're not going there now. I made this as a "budget" build that can do all game content without spending tons of exalts so every player can enjoy it and not only 1% or less of player base. You can do Uber Elder with 3-5 exalts gear, and can do it easily with 15 exalt gear, no need for more expensive gear.

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Xavathos wrote:

Their damage is the same, but under different circumstances.
Chieftain has more damage on their totem and can use Atziri's Promise as a 3rd damage flask since no Avatar of Fire, but they also HAVE TO in order to have slightly higher damage than the Juggernaut. Flasks don't last forever, unless you portal a lot, which then gives the Juggernaut the clear advantage when it comes to generating extremely important endurance charges.

2) Damage is not the same, and you used unrealistic circumstances like "always on full life". How is that even possible when using Nebuloch?

3) You even used suboptimal and different gem setups in your comparaison.

4) Flask don't last forever, but you don't have to portal at all. When mapping, it is obvious, and for bosses, either you kill him before your flask ends, or you refill your flask during adds. I never had to portal just for the flasks.

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Xavathos wrote:

The Juggernaut: https://pastebin.com/bce5Dp9p

+ 13k more armour
+ Better physical and elemental damage mitigation (10% phys, 8% elemental, 5% all)
+ Gains life regen based on physical damage prevented (this could bring his regen in line with Chief when taking seriously hard physical hits)
+ Very easy to cap chaos resistance
+ Extremely easy to apply max endurance charges at all times
+ Can use rallying cry for extra damage (NOT counted in test)

- Needs to crit in order to keep up EO for damage (using CWDT/BV helps a lot with this)

5) As I mentioned before, more damage mitigation does not necessarily mean better defenses.

6) Endurence charge generation is the only true advantage that has juggernaut over chiefain.

7) Chieftain can also use rallying cry for extra damage.

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Xavathos wrote:

The Chieftain: https://pastebin.com/AhHR6V5t

+ 300 more max life
+ 650 life/sec more regen
+ Very easy to cap elemental resistances
+ Always keep your damage up, as you don't rely on crits to proc EO

- Has trouble getting to max charges on single target bosses without mobs or after a portal (without those you are quite vulnerable)
- Requires enduring cry to keep charges up at times (NOT counted in test)
- More expensive (at this level of currency though... we can forgive this one)

8) More life and more life regen does not mean that chieftain is better than juggernaut

9) As I mentioned earlier, you don't need to recharge your flasks because they either the boss will be dead or adds will spawn before they end.

10) How is chieftain more expensive? I know that he needs a good Elder amulet, but it doesn't mean that it has to be more expensive than Xoph's Blood to beat Juggernaut.

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Xavathos wrote:

So there. Well, what do you know? Both are great and both have their up and downsides in the very GG state of the build.

Personally, I'll still hand this one to the Juggernaut, solely based on how easy it is to generate charges and how extremely important those charges are in this build.

I hope we can now bury the Atziri's Disfavour and go on with our lives. ;)

11) Yes. Both have their up and downsides. Chieftain has the most efficient price/quality/ performance ratio, while Juggernaut has easier Endurance charge generation, which is a very good QoL.

12) Thank you for your time and effort. It seems however (for me at least) that you tried your best to make Juggernaut look better than Chieftain for this build :) . Moving from regular expensive gear (Chieftain wins here) to very expensive gg gear that almost noone can afford just proves that. You even used different gem setups, unrealistic conditions, suboptimal tree for Chieftain and Consecrated Path. This is a Molten Strike build, not Consecrated Path :D . You like Juggernaut, play Juggernaut. But for the majority of the players (low to medium wages, lol), Chieftain is the optimal choice.

13) Never had a Disfavour :'( Is it still viable?

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Xavathos wrote:

Alright, so I've made, since we're going there now, an unrealistic end-game build with pretty much GG gear for both classes with an (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) optimised passive tree. Feel free to work your own Molten Strike setup into this if you want, I don't plan to use it at all.

Their damage is the same, but under different circumstances.
Chieftain has more damage on their totem and can use Atziri's Promise as a 3rd damage flask since no Avatar of Fire, but they also HAVE TO in order to have slightly higher damage than the Juggernaut. Flasks don't last forever, unless you portal a lot, which then gives the Juggernaut the clear advantage when it comes to generating extremely important endurance charges.


The Juggernaut: https://pastebin.com/bce5Dp9p

+ 13k more armour
+ Better physical and elemental damage mitigation (10% phys, 8% elemental, 5% all)
+ Gains life regen based on physical damage prevented (this could bring his regen in line with Chief when taking seriously hard physical hits)
+ Very easy to cap chaos resistance
+ Extremely easy to apply max endurance charges at all times
+ Can use rallying cry for extra damage (NOT counted in test)

- Needs to crit in order to keep up EO for damage (using CWDT/BV helps a lot with this)


The Chieftain: https://pastebin.com/AhHR6V5t

+ 300 more max life
+ 650 life/sec more regen
+ Very easy to cap elemental resistances
+ Always keep your damage up, as you don't rely on crits to proc EO

- Has trouble getting to max charges on single target bosses without mobs or after a portal (without those you are quite vulnerable)
- Requires enduring cry to keep charges up at times (NOT counted in test)
- More expensive (at this level of currency though... we can forgive this one)


So there. Well, what do you know? Both are great and both have their up and downsides in the very GG state of the build.

Personally, I'll still hand this one to the Juggernaut, solely based on how easy it is to generate charges and how extremely important those charges are in this build.

I hope we can now bury the Atziri's Disfavour and go on with our lives. ;)

your build for chieftain doesn't include the chieftan proc in the ngamahu passive. It averages out to 21% phys added as fire damage which definitely puts cheiften ahead in dps.

I'll say this too, I've tried out the jug build with xophs and elemental overload for molten strike in pob and it always comes out to far less damage. Idk why, but jug is clearly very subpar for ms, which is what this build revolves around.

also also, consecrated path is bugged right now and it's pretty subpar for clear, there's a ~30 degree angle it just isn't hitting mobs and it almost always causes you to have to use 1-3 more paths then normal.

Use Molten strike with anc call and melee splash, it's really just as good for clear, this coming from a guy who runs fully sextanted zana modded corrupted t16's all day.

finally, this is for the OP of this build. You can use anc call (with always attack without moving selected) and attack a boss in the deadzone to give up the melee hit and proc double the magma balls

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grimchip wrote:

Use Molten strike with anc call and melee splash, it's really just as good for clear, this coming from a guy who runs fully sextanted zana modded corrupted t16's all day.

finally, this is for the OP of this build. You can use anc call (with always attack without moving selected) and attack a boss in the deadzone to give up the melee hit and proc double the magma balls

Thank you for your advice. This is actually what I did to beat Uber Elder. However, I switched to anc call because my laptop is crap and I wasn't aiming well because of the lags and freezes and the fight was a lot easier. I will update PoB links. Thank you!

EDIT: How do you find this build compared to other similar builds (price/quality/ performance ratio)?

EDIT2: Maybe Increased AoE is better than Conc Effect for mapping?

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fjtheknight wrote:

1) No, we're not going there now. I made this as a "budget" build that can do all game content without spending tons of exalts so every player can enjoy it and not only 1% or less of player base. You can do Uber Elder with 3-5 exalts gear, and can do it easily with 15 exalt gear, no need for more expensive gear.

You already did when you brought a 100ex amulet into the discussion on how Chieftain's damage would be better. Well, look for yourself, it's not.

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fjtheknight wrote:

2) Damage is not the same, and you used unrealistic circumstances like "always on full life". How is that even possible when using Nebuloch?

When your regen is higher than your degen, you're on full life. If ANY build can make use of this gem, it's us with our massive regen.

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fjtheknight wrote:

3) You even used suboptimal and different gem setups in your comparaison.

Oh yeah, Ruthless is 2% better than the charge on melee stun. I realised this shortly after posting. Didn't edit, because it doesn't change anything.

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fjtheknight wrote:

4) Flask don't last forever, but you don't have to portal at all. When mapping, it is obvious, and for bosses, either you kill him before your flask ends, or you refill your flask during adds. I never had to portal just for the flasks.

Who's talking about mapping when addressing having to portal to restore flasks? You do that on bosses (if ever) not maps. Could you please stop applying the wrong situations to things I say?

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fjtheknight wrote:

5) As I mentioned before, more damage mitigation does not necessarily mean better defenses.

Oh really? So what's defense to you then? Having more exalts in your stash? Better looking MTX? More pets in your hideout? I think defenses are all about mitigation and effective HP, but we might be playing an entirely different game here.

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fjtheknight wrote:

6) Endurence charge generation is the only true advantage that has juggernaut over chiefain.

Open your eyes, that's all I can say.

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fjtheknight wrote:

7) Chieftain can also use rallying cry for extra damage.

Of course, if you give up a socket for it, because you also need enduring cry. Shave off some DPS from your totem for it, I guess.

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fjtheknight wrote:

8) More life and more life regen does not mean that chieftain is better than juggernaut

Finally something we can agree on, but I'm simply stating the differences there, not saying which is better at all.

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fjtheknight wrote:

9) As I mentioned earlier, you don't need to recharge your flasks because they either the boss will be dead or adds will spawn before they end.

Well, if that's true, then by all means. Don't say I didn't warn you.

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fjtheknight wrote:

10) How is chieftain more expensive? I know that he needs a good Elder amulet, but it doesn't mean that it has to be more expensive than Xoph's Blood to beat Juggernaut.

Look at the amulet in the build. That thing is worth let's say a little bit more than 10ex that Xoph's Blood would cost you. The rest of the gear is also crazy expensive but they are both using that so it's equal. Still, a gap of 100+ ex. Remove that for something worth 10ex and you'll see the difference only getting bigger in favor of the Jugg.

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fjtheknight wrote:

11) Yes. Both have their up and downsides. Chieftain has the most efficient price/quality/ performance ratio, while Juggernaut has easier Endurance charge generation, which is a very good QoL.

Quality of life... just ignore everything else mentioned and say that your class wins. Sigh. I wonder why I bother sometimes, honestly.

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fjtheknight wrote:

12) Thank you for your time and effort. It seems however (for me at least) that you tried your best to make Juggernaut look better than Chieftain for this build :) . Moving from regular expensive gear (Chieftain wins here) to very expensive gg gear that almost noone can afford just proves that. You even used different gem setups, unrealistic conditions, suboptimal tree for Chieftain and Consecrated Path. This is a Molten Strike build, not Consecrated Path :D . You like Juggernaut, play Juggernaut. But for the majority of the players (low to medium wages, lol), Chieftain is the optimal choice.

You're so unbelievably biased that it's becoming really frustrating to try to make you see things. You're boasting feedback in your guide, but all I see is people praising you. When you get real feedback that could change something like I'm trying to provide, you're putting up this wall and acting like I'm crazy.

You're straight up lying to your audience when you say Chieftain is the "cheapest option" it is clearly not. The game is expensive at GG levels but neither builds require any of that and neither class outshines one another by a great margin at any level of gear, as you can see in my tests.

Your argument about this being a molten strike build or not is irrelevant. Those skills are interchangeable. You can slap both skills onto both classes and neither Chief nor Juggernaut will have anything specific in their passives to make any difference at all, hence irrelevant to the comparison.

Also, you're saying I used unrealistic gear which is not true in the slightest. Everything I used is obtainable in-game. Expensive? It was a test of end-game gear, doh. You said with GG gear Chief wins, so I took the challenge and proved it's not. You can deny it all you want, but my numbers are there for everyone to see.

It really doesn't matter at all in the end, it's your build, your guide, your choice. But the way you handle feedback is extremely disappointing. You're talking a lot, but you're not showing any evidence to back it up. I've been playing and creating builds since 2013, I know what I'm doing, yet you're dismissing my opinion like it's nothing based on no more than personal bias.

Well, I'll just consider myself dismissed then. G'day.

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grimchip wrote:

your build for chieftain doesn't include the chieftan proc in the ngamahu passive. It averages out to 21% phys added as fire damage which definitely puts cheiften ahead in dps.

I'll say this too, I've tried out the jug build with xophs and elemental overload for molten strike in pob and it always comes out to far less damage. Idk why, but jug is clearly very subpar for ms, which is what this build revolves around.

also also, consecrated path is bugged right now and it's pretty subpar for clear, there's a ~30 degree angle it just isn't hitting mobs and it almost always causes you to have to use 1-3 more paths then normal.

Use Molten strike with anc call and melee splash, it's really just as good for clear, this coming from a guy who runs fully sextanted zana modded corrupted t16's all day.

Hey there Grimchip, thanks for the feedback.

I'm not entirely certain whether or not PoB factors in the Ngamahu passive or not. I've been wondering about this myself ever since I saw it. It doesn't factor in the Undeniable's 30% accuracy and damage after you've crit recently either, unless you have a jewel that has "attack speed after you've crit recently" because that's when PoB gives you a check box to tick and it'll apply both.

Again, not sure if PoB counts the 21% phys to fire from Ngamahu. If it doesn't, very good point damage-wise in favor of Chief. But I'll have to be sure it doesn't, somehow.

About Consecrated Path; You're absolutely right. The deeper I've gotten into the build, the more apparent the bug has become. When your attack speed gets higher, you start noticing you're slamming the ground so much when nothing near you is alive still. The best way to describe it is comparing it to having a stationary Multristrike linked or something.

I hope they'll fix that sometime, but right now it's really annoying and slows the skill down in maps quite a bit. I'll try your molten strike suggestion with ancestral call, see if I like that more. Cheers! :)