[outdated] Caustic Arrow Solo Map MFer (20/300+)

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hankinsohl wrote:

Good point:

Total damage = Base damage * product of all more damage * sum of all additional damage

So I didn't factor in increased base damage * sum of all additional damage in this

Yeah, on the surface things like empower don't make too much can difference, but once you do all the dank maths, they end up giving 60% more dps when compared to other gems.

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gutsquasher wrote:

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hankinsohl wrote:

Good point:

Total damage = Base damage * product of all more damage * sum of all additional damage

So I didn't factor in increased base damage * sum of all additional damage in this

You caught me between edits in my response before I went back through and did the maths, LOL.

Unless I've overlooked something, Pierce basically gives 5% more damage than Empower 3 - check my edited response above for the math.

Edit: Also checked this with the CA DPS calculator tool - it also shows that Pierce is better than Empower 3.

I was going to go through and do the math on it but yeah basically Guts has it right.

In 2.1, when we were running an AoE gem and thus missing out on the 29% multiplicative damage of Rapid Decay, it actually was more beneficial to run RD instead of Empower 3.

But now that we get that extra multiplier, that plays a HUGE factor on the increased gem levels from Empower being slotted in, rather than Pierce.

That, and I tested it in-game in 2.2 by swapping the gems out to check the hard dps difference on the tooltip.

Pierce/Slower Proj beats out Empower 2, but not Empower 3, in a +3 bow.

Hence on the guide, I mention explicitly that if you have an effective Empower 4 (Empower 3 + 1 to all gems) or better, you should run that.

Thanks to guts for the math on the proof.


Remember, the foruma is basically Net Damage = (Base Damage * Increased) * Multiplicative, therefore the higher your base damage is, the more effective the other modifiers become.

Believe it or not, the extra 29% you get from Rapid Decay is what pushes Empower 3+ over the edge compared to any other gem option, due to the increase to CA's base damage as a result of the extra levels.


If it wasn't 2:11am, I'd log in and go about rechroming my bow to provide screenshots of the difference but the TL;DR here is Guts is right, Empower 3+ wins.


And you missed something then on Vmoddin's calculator, Hank. I just double checked it there as well. Empower 3 trumps out Pierce.


I posted screenshots of this waaaaaaaaaaay back sometime around 2.2.

Quick scan reveals one place where I discussed it. Pierce is a 4k damage loss compared to Empower 3.

From what I gather you don't really switch to Caustic until mid-late game and before that you are using other skills for leveling. I have only seen a couple skills mentioned to use. Is there a detailed leveling guide for these skills that include support skills to get w/it. I am pretty new and don't know all the gems so I simply would have to find the gem or have it offered to me in quest before I even knew it existed. So I'm pretty lost on what skills to take while leveling besides the 2 mentioned to use in the beginning. I will probably be going the Orb of Storms / Lightning Tendrils route as I will be playing solo and don't want to have to mule my starting gems. Any guidance is appreciated :)

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Serleth wrote:

I was going to go through and do the math on it but yeah basically Guts has it right.

In 2.1, when we were running an AoE gem and thus missing out on the 29% multiplicative damage of Rapid Decay, it actually was more beneficial to run RD instead of Empower 3.

But now that we get that extra multiplier, that plays a HUGE factor on the increased gem levels from Empower being slotted in, rather than Pierce.

That, and I tested it in-game in 2.2 by swapping the gems out to check the hard dps difference on the tooltip.

Pierce/Slower Proj beats out Empower 2, but not Empower 3, in a +3 bow.

Hence on the guide, I mention explicitly that if you have an effective Empower 4 (Empower 3 + 1 to all gems) or better, you should run that.

Thanks to guts for the math on the proof.


Remember, the foruma is basically Net Damage = (Base Damage * Increased) * Multiplicative, therefore the higher your base damage is, the more effective the other modifiers become.

Believe it or not, the extra 29% you get from Rapid Decay is what pushes Empower 3+ over the edge compared to any other gem option, due to the increase to CA's base damage as a result of the extra levels.


If it wasn't 2:11am, I'd log in and go about rechroming my bow to provide screenshots of the difference but the TL;DR here is Guts is right, Empower 3+ wins.


And you missed something then on Vmoddin's calculator, Hank. I just double checked it there as well. Empower 3 trumps out Pierce.


I posted screenshots of this waaaaaaaaaaay back sometime around 2.2.

Quick scan reveals one place where I discussed it. Pierce is a 4k damage loss compared to Empower 3.

Well, here's what I get from the damage calculator.
Pierce
Empower 3

I'm still seeing Empower 3 < Pierce.

You can also sub in Item Rarity for Slower Projectiles in the above; it doesn't make a difference to the outcome.

In the quick scan link I didn't quite follow your discussion about pierce chance - either way (with Empower 3 or with Pierce 20) we'll be at 100% pierce; I keep one 10% pierce node with the Pierce gem to achieve this.

Also in briefly looking at gutsquasher's calculations, I don't see where he accounts for Pierce's 30% more damage.

First, hi!

Second, http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Path_of_Exile_Wiki is your friend.

Which I mention because I'm going to be saying things like "use Controlled Destruction support gem" etc.

There really isn't much to the process, Kasey, insofar as what you've brought up regarding gems. All three spell options for levelling run pretty much identically, with some small differences.


Main Skills (Fire/Cold/Lightning): Firestorm / Frost Bolt / Lightning Tendrils

Secondary Skills (F/C/L): Flame Totem / Ice Nova (or Vortex, not to be confused with Blade Vortex) / Orb of Storms.

I'll run through Fire/Lightning first since they're the least complicated, and Frostbolt / Vortex aren't released yet until tomorrow.

So, for BOTH Firestorm and Lightning Tendrils you're initially looking to support them with flat added damage support gems, i.e. Added Lightning and Added Cold.

You can do the same for the secondary skills (Flame Totem and Orb of Storms) initially.

In BOTH scenarios, you will be looking to eventually change the support gems to Faster Casting and Controlled Destruction. For all four of the aforementioned skills. For Flame Totem, you may consider running Lesser Multiple Projectiles rather than Faster Casting, but I generally find I'm using the totem more for drawing enemy fire rather than dealing a significant portion of damage, so I'm personally fine leaving Faster Casting in there. The choice is yours.


For Frost Bolt + Ice Nova / Vortex combo, we know a bit less, but the principle is going to roughly be the same. The mechanics are different, however.

Flame Totem is generally for aggression control, like I mentioned, and Orb of Storms is mostly for amplifying the damage of your Lightning Tendrils while you're in the radius of the orb.


However, the way the Cold combination outlined above works is that you will first cast Frost Bolt, and then target the projectiles as they are travelling, then cast your choice of either Vortex or Ice Nova, which will result in a pretty neat combination effect.

Nobody really knows how good this is going to be yet, obviously, but as it turns out, we're basically looking at a similar concept:

Start out with Ice Nova and flat Added Cold / Lightning damage, eventually switching to Faster Casting and Controlled Destruction, and do the same for Frost Bolt.


IN ALL SCENARIOS, no matter what element you choose, here's the key bit:

You will want to craft yourself a +1 Fire/Cold/Lightning Gems Sceptre or Wand.

And this is another reason I linked the wiki because if you go to the wiki page on Vendor Recipes, it will tell you how to go about doing that.


Hope that helps!

Hank,

Net = (Base * Increased) * Multiplicative

Level 24 CA = 861.1 /s (Level 21 Base, +3 Bow)
Level 27 CA = 1198 /s (Level 21 Base, Empower 3 (effectively 4), +3 bow)

Damage Sources (Increased)

Chaos Damage: 20%
Projectile Damage: 210%
DoT: 69%
Misc: 100% (Carcass, Jewels, Golem, etc).
Drillneck: 90% (100% with Pierce Gem)
Gem Qualities: 30% (40% with Pierce Gem)

Pierce Gem Increased Modifiers: 539%
Empower Gem Increased Modifiers: 519%

Damage Sources (Multiplicative):

Concentrated Effect: 60%
Void Manipulation: 40%
Rapid Decay: 40%
Pierce: 30%
Frenzy Charges: 28%

Pierce Gem Multiplicative Modifiers: 198%
Empower Gem Multiplicative Modifiers: 168%

Pre-Debuff CA Damage (Pierce)
N = (B * I) * M
N = 861.1 * (1+ 539/100) * (1 + 198/100)
N = 861.1 * 6.39 * 2.98
N = 16,397.24 /s

Pre-Debuff CA Damage (Empower 3)
N = (B * I) * M
N = 1198 * (1 + 519/100) * (1 + 168/100)
N = 1198 * 6.19 * 2.68
N = 19,873.86 /s


For more direct proof, I just bought a 20/20 Pierce and used a spare +3 bow for the rechrome:

Pierce Tooltip


Empower 3 Tooltip


These are without Frenzy charges or any other modifications (namely, the Occultist recently cursed-kill).

Yes, these screens don't account for the Deadeye change, but the difference only gets more dramatic once you consider that the tooltip doesn't account for Concentrated Effect, either, nor the boosts from Vulnerability or Wither, the fact that Frenzy charges aren't in the mix (furthering the gap even more in all counts), and the difference in 2.3 pre-debuff would only be 10% increased on the tooltip shown for the Pierce gem.

I figured out (one of?) Vmoddin's problem(s) on the calculator btw, which is what's skewing your results (which I intuitively corrected for when doing my work on his calculator without even thinking about it, because I remembered having to do it before):

He doesn't put a cap on Pierce + Drillneck. If you push the Pierce chance up above 100, you will see the dps increase, which it shouldn't.

So when you "socket" the Pierce gem on his calculator, you're also increasing the Pierce chance. Hence, the misinformed result.

@Serleth
Yup - I caught the non-capping of pierce in the tool just now while trying to figure out how that portion of the tool works.
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In the nice calculation you provide above, it appears that you've added the "more" damage modifiers and then and then applied the result.

My understanding is that it's the product of all more multipliers that's used, not the sum; indeed, if it were the sum, than "more" would suffer diminishing returns just like "increased" which, as we all know, isn't the case.
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Based on the numbers you provide in your calculation above, Serleth, the cumulative multiplier for Pierce should be:

1.6*1.4*1.4*1.3*1.28 = 5.22

For Empower it's the same but get rid of Pierce's 1.3 for 4.02
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Pierce Damage is then:
861.1 * 6.39 * 5.22 = 28,700

Empower 3 Damage is then:
1198 * 6.39 * 4.02 = 30,774

The above numbers also seem to closely match the damage calculator; good news, it seems that the damage calculator is probably correct insofar as it matches the DPS numbers I compute by hand above.

This is not to say it's error-free in all cases... but it seems to have covered the basics correctly.
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I found where I made an error in my Pierce versus Empower 3 comparison - it's not in the formula I was using - instead, it's in not applying +1 to gems to Empower - basically I was using 1073.7 instead of 1198 for the base CA damage; the numbers I used in my formula were basically comparing Pierce to Level 2 Empower in a +1/+2 bow.
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Thanks for helping me clear this up Serleth and gutsquasher.

The take-home from this would seem to be, don't worry about getting a red socket in your 6-link +1/+2 bow until you have Empower 3+; Pierce will outperform Empower 2-, will be easier to color for, and will use less mana.
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Uh, the other take home is that I can't reliably look up damage values in a table! I suck!!! LOL.

Daum, Serleth! If I'd was a director of Best-Forum-Members Museum, I would buy you for exposition for $1M, no less :-D
Great job at enlightening us noobs and filling this thread with welcoming atmosphere!

I am aware the math is important to know when looking at and evaluating support gem options, but my eyes still glaze over a bit in these discussions. I'll get it eventually.

@KaseyM21

One can level as CA, and that is usually what I do, with the support of ED and contagion. It is a little slow, but I also level with friends at the start of a new league. Having the group does help it go faster. I have a spoiler back on page 385 showing the Gems for the CA set up and where to get them as a scion, or early enough to mule. This is only important if leveling as CA, if leveling as something else I'd stick with Serleth's elemental suggestions.



My standard league preparations were mostly completed. I am down to only haveing two remove-only tabs in Standard (well essentially two, sill have my race rewards, and my fishing tabs), and they are rare UNID maps, or Zana prefix maps I just did not get around to running. Bring on the new coins and the purple.