All these threads about nerfing group play. Here is my opinion GGG

Look guys I have read through 100s of pages of different threads on this topic and lets break down most of it and how people see team play.

Pros:
* People get to play together.
* Loot drops increased.
* Increased EXP gains.
* Having full 6 man group at start of league will allow you to get to end game faster than others.
* Having full 6 man groups will allow these players to lock down the market by being the first to get to killing end game boss's and getting better loot to make their characters even more broken to start doing Ascendancy carries, etc.
* Each season is the same 2 or maybe 3 groups of 6 man parties that get to mirror craft items first then sell them for ridiculous prices on the AH making RMT sites get more sales by people that don't want to grind instead they just want to hop on kill some shit and have fun.

(don't really know of any other benefits of team play than the above)

Cons:
* Monster power increases dramatically.
* 1 guy zooms around map without the group.
* 1 guy takes all the loot that drops out of greed.
* 1 guy dies over and over using all the remaining portals if not a full party.
* 1 guy attacks while everyone else plays follow the leader.
* The host of the party if they are not local to the other players causes latency issues of 500ms or higher making it unplayable by others in the party.
* Causes of inflation in market due to 6 man groups breaking the game (like the temple snake trash that prints 100div per run) causing normal players to never be able to catch up because they didn't feed 1 guy for the first 2 days where they are a unkillable machine.
* League after 2 weeks is already so overpriced on marginal upgrades to anyone's character they quit playing the league. Nobody is going to pay 300div at start of league for a 2% increase in damage for 1 item.

(I am sure I can go on and on with the cons of party play but I wont if you want stuff added to the pros and cons let me know I will add it)

So we can see there is very little to gain from group play for 5 of the 6 players because all it is is one guy running around killing and looting everything of value while 5 others play follow the leader. Not a single person would group up in POE1 or POE2 if there wasn't such a astronomical increase in drops. Hence why all the cry's for a nerf to group play.

There are just a few things that would have to be fixed before group play where everyone fights & not just 1 guy and it be fun. First and foremost any build that 1 shots the entire screen would have to be nerfed into oblivion which would go back to the ideology GGG had with more meaningful combat, slower combat with combos, etc. The problem with this is it is near impossible to get every skill in the game from being able to do so and GGG has seen this first hand and with 0.5 on the horizon we seen in the livestream more zoom zoom, & less slow combat combos.

So one will ask how do we fix this? Well there are a few ways to do so but a lot of the RMT sellers and people that sell to RMT sites wont like. So here is the proposition for GGG.

1. Adding players to the party should not increase loot or effect loot in any way. If you want to play with your buddies cool you can do so without it being mandatory if you want to get the currency needed to buy gear that your character needs or play the AH game of buying and selling stuff over and over to get currency. Grouping then becomes about friendship, having fun together, and seeing what you can accomplish with a buddy or 5 buddies.

2. All loot should be instanced loot for all people in the party. It should not be shared loot. The loot that drops should be based on distance from who killed the monster so if 1 guy runs off his own way you get 0 loot from what they kill and vise versa. I am not saying if a divine drops for 1 player that it should drop for all players. I am saying that everyone who contributes to the fights killing staying with group etc, should have their own loot dropped that cannot be sniped by other players. So everyone can get the dopamine feeling that this good item dropped, and not be like I only seen it for .0005 seconds before some other player in the group picked it up.

Some will say there is different party loot settings but with the current system lets say a lock drops for player #4 and the leader seen this so they stop fighting nobody else can kill anything cause they are under leveled, under geared, etc. Then everyone dies including player 4 before he could pick up the lock so now he has to respawn in the hideout before said loot becomes available for anyone else in the party to pick up. I have seen this done and had it done to me many times over. This is not promoting group play its promoting follow the leader take nothing and get nothing but EXP.

3. Any item listed on the auction house, or traded via trade window, should not be able to be bought and relisted again. Once an item has been bought off the AH it is that persons item forever. No more buying off RMT sites to purchase the best Mirror item and a mirror to start printing currency like you own your own currency printing press. 1 sell 1 mirror period this will force more crafting to be done by everyone and stop a lot of the RMT going rampant in POE2.

4. Remove the need for "aura" bots. There is no need for a build that consists of giving the party 1000 buffs 1000% increase to rarity/currency, and so on. Each build instead should contribute to these buffs not just 1 guy running all the buffs but not attacking a single thing in the game. This promotes follow the leader style of gameplay.

5. Do not allow group play to split farm areas to get through acts faster. If you were not there when the map/area was created you cannot just teleport to that player and have it all ready for everyone to jump in grab the quest then go back to the area they were tasked to find. This will promote actual GROUP play not here is a fork in the road of 4 ways that we have to go back track through so 1 person go find this quest in area 1, 1 person go find quest in area 2, 1 goes off cause he's fast in area 3, and last guy the slow guy takes smallest area 4, while 2 other people sit in town waiting for a TP to get quest done without doing a single thing.

(TP TP TP TP TP TP TP TP PP PP PP PP PP PP diablo 2 throwback)

This is by far a full plan but would combat all the current issues with group play. Lastly before the people flood in with just play SSF, maybe I want to play with my buddies without fighting over loot or playing follow the leader and still be able to utilize the AH. I know its a hard thought but SSF is for people that hate multiplayer and at that point the game is just an offline game that nobody cares about.

So TDLR, make group play about group play and not follow the leader, loot should be instanced loot for each person not shared loot, and AH should be bind on purchase of all items sold or traded (besides currency of course), & much more.

Hope GGG can take what I have said and turn it into a great ideas building off this feedback.

Regards,
Muffins

Another thread that doesn't even know the party size limit?
How can you claim to provide feedback on a system you clearly don't understand one of the simplest most visible aspects you could fact check in like seconds?

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

Another thread that doesn't even know the party size limit?
How can you claim to provide feedback on a system you clearly don't understand one of the simplest most visible aspects you could fact check in like seconds?

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

"

Skutz123#5377 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

Another thread that doesn't even know the party size limit?
How can you claim to provide feedback on a system you clearly don't understand one of the simplest most visible aspects you could fact check in like seconds?

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

Be nice if it was that easy for sure. Nice of you to assume OP actually knows, wouldn't be three first poster I've corrected that admitted they didn't know either though lol.

Ok, this is my last reply until like November, I promise.

Just some facts for you, because hundreds of pages you read must have been read with no comprehension or AI that wrote it for you decided to be smarter than you successfully - as you didn't edit it afterwards.
I am not siding with abusers or whatever you want to throw at me, just facts:

Boss-exclusive Uniques are not affected by rarity, nor party quantity bonus.
Group pays for 1 entry, gets more difficult fight and the same chance to get the unique as a solo player. Which makes it's value to be divided by up to 6 when it drops.
- Technically drop value division per party member is balancing the singular Key entry cost.
- Having auras and buffs is balancing more difficult fight.
The only thing not being balanced is that in a party you commit with up to 6 people's time for the reward of solo. Which makes parties in actual disadvantage (besides the raw currency or white bases farming).
- Thus, raw currency and white bases farming party advantage is what balances the Boss-exclusive drops that are in favour for solo player.
- Groups inflating the Currency value are effectively increasing the value of items from Boss-exclusive loot tables, which is balancing the issue.
Also - more divs in the pool - more you can actually use them to roll mods on an item instead of stockpiling for a buy.
^ The "balancing" parts might be in disproportion rewarding one side or another more, but it is there and can be aligned by devs, so the system is not broken at all.

Temple broke the inflation curve - true.

Personal loot in party won't work, because of how Boss-exclusive loot works. If you allow personal loot, you just made party to have up to 6 times better loot from Bosses with cost of 1 entry key, which is literally the opposite to what you want to achieve.

"

make group play about group play and not follow the leader

^ This I agree with, It's a Temple issue and most likely fixed in 0.5.

Thank you, see you in ~November when i'm done with 0.5.
Kisses :*

PS. feel free to copy-paste this under posts like these.

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

nuff said.

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comnom#5629 wrote:

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

nuff said.

No the simple answer is I dont party with people so clearly I guessed it was 8 cause thats the general census in games now days but sure flame away. Honestly I dont care but ill edit it for you just because instead of reading and discussing or politely stating its 6 people you decided to be a troll. Its a system I understand well more than you.

You play the follow the leader game instead of trying to offer feedback like a normal human being that isnt a tool.

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comnom#5629 wrote:

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

nuff said.

Yet another troll, its amazing you guys are allowed to bread.

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

Another thread that doesn't even know the party size limit?
How can you claim to provide feedback on a system you clearly don't understand one of the simplest most visible aspects you could fact check in like seconds?

The OP likely knows the group size, but the AI he used to argue for him likely does not, and is conflating PoE1 or other games. Part of why I've said before AI generated or heavily assisted posts should be banned from this forum.

Not AI generated wrote it myself but sure stay in follow the leader land instead of talking and discussing.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

Another thread that doesn't even know the party size limit?
How can you claim to provide feedback on a system you clearly don't understand one of the simplest most visible aspects you could fact check in like seconds?

Im sorry I did not check party limit size because I dont play in parties but sure troll away bud the concepts are still the same weather its 6 8 10 100 10000 or a million players. You read 8 players and got all mad but the facts are true group play is just follow the leader it is not party based there is no raid boss's there is nothing in the game that has to be done with a group so the ONLY reason any of you want group play is so you can benefit from the broken group loot drops point blank period.

If there was 0 benefit on loot drops in POE1 or POE2 not a single one of you would EVER group up with anyone.

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Evergrey#7535 wrote:

Ok, this is my last reply until like November, I promise.

Just some facts for you, because hundreds of pages you read must have been read with no comprehension or AI that wrote it for you decided to be smarter than you successfully - as you didn't edit it afterwards.
I am not siding with abusers or whatever you want to throw at me, just facts:

Boss-exclusive Uniques are not affected by rarity, nor party quantity bonus.
Group pays for 1 entry, gets more difficult fight and the same chance to get the unique as a solo player. Which makes it's value to be divided by up to 6 when it drops.
- Technically drop value division per party member is balancing the singular Key entry cost.
- Having auras and buffs is balancing more difficult fight.
The only thing not being balanced is that in a party you commit with up to 6 people's time for the reward of solo. Which makes parties in actual disadvantage (besides the raw currency or white bases farming).
- Thus, raw currency and white bases farming party advantage is what balances the Boss-exclusive drops that are in favour for solo player.
- Groups inflating the Currency value are effectively increasing the value of items from Boss-exclusive loot tables, which is balancing the issue.
Also - more divs in the pool - more you can actually use them to roll mods on an item instead of stockpiling for a buy.
^ The "balancing" parts might be in disproportion rewarding one side or another more, but it is there and can be aligned by devs, so the system is not broken at all.

Temple broke the inflation curve - true.

Personal loot in party won't work, because of how Boss-exclusive loot works. If you allow personal loot, you just made party to have up to 6 times better loot from Bosses with cost of 1 entry key, which is literally the opposite to what you want to achieve.

"

make group play about group play and not follow the leader

^ This I agree with, It's a Temple issue and most likely fixed in 0.5.

Thank you, see you in ~November when i'm done with 0.5.
Kisses :*

PS. feel free to copy-paste this under posts like these.

This is the only person to actually provide feedback vs trolling and offering nothing to the post. However, the fact that you have to start off with insults just shows your character. No AI didnt write anything for me and I comprehend very well so please dont turn my thread into a bashing match do what your momma taught you, "if you have nothing nice to say then don't say nothing at all".

Now to break down your comments:

#1 "Boss-exclusive Uniques are not affected by rarity, nor party quantity bonus.
Group pays for 1 entry, gets more difficult fight and the same chance to get the unique as a solo player. Which makes it's value to be divided by up to 6 when it drops."

Please provide proof because last I checked the more people on map, in boss fight, or anywhere in the game you get increased drops. Let me post this from the wiki for POE2

https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Partying

Party item drop/monster life scaling
# of players
in area 1 2 3 4 5 6
Currency Items — +11% +22% +32% +42% +51%
Other Items — +11% +22% +32% +42% +51%
Increased Item Rarity — +0% +0% +0% +0% +0%
Normal Monster Life — +50% +100% +150% +200% +250%
Magic Monster Life — +60% +120% +180% +240% +300%
Rare Monster Life — +80% +160% +240% +320% +400%
Unique Monster Life — +100% +200% +300% +400% +500%

Other items humm is increased hummm whats next.

Items dropped from monsters are increased based on the number of players nearby when the monster is killed. Currency has a higher additional drop rate per player in the party compared to equipment.

~100% more currency drops per party member.
~100% more ring/amulet drops per party member.
~28% more item drops in total per party member, with skewed distributions of item classes towards more generically useful item types

Clearly everything in the game is effected hence why people get a full group to carry their ascendancy because the more people in there when they kill the last boss the better the drops they get plus with they charge each person.

#2 - Technically drop value division per party member is balancing the singular Key entry cost.
- Having auras and buffs is balancing more difficult fight.
The only thing not being balanced is that in a party you commit with up to 6 people's time for the reward of solo. Which makes parties in actual disadvantage (besides the raw currency or white bases farming).

No where in the formula is it divided by 6 because there are 6 people. If it was instance based loot sure I can see that part of the deal but its not its shared loot so it all goes to 1 guy running the maps while everyone else plays follow the leader.

#3 - Thus, raw currency and white bases farming party advantage is what balances the Boss-exclusive drops that are in favour for solo player.

Incorrect sorry a solo player should obtain currency, base items, boss items, etc at the same rate as group play. Having 1 better than the other puts a divide in the game. However as stated above there is 0 evidence provided that states the "group bonus" doesnt affect boss drops. I would gladly pick apart whatever you come up with thou.

#4 ^ The "balancing" parts might be in disproportion rewarding one side or another more, but it is there and can be aligned by devs, so the system is not broken at all.

The system is completely broken, hence why all big streamers or those like that one major guy that ran TFT used it to make money through RMT. This wouldn't have been possible if these broken group bonus's were never applied in the game in the first place. 1000s of items he was making through RMT all gone because they finally caught him. My example of how to fix it breaks all RMT from the core and removes the need for it in a video game.

#5 Temple broke the inflation curve - true.

It didnt just break the inflation curve it destroyed the entire season that we got stuck in for 6 months.

#6 Personal loot in party won't work, because of how Boss-exclusive loot works. If you allow personal loot, you just made party to have up to 6 times better loot from Bosses with cost of 1 entry key, which is literally the opposite to what you want to achieve.

Yes it would its pretty simple honestly but I didnt start post to show you how math works. People can get stuff 6 times faster by bringing in 6 people and thats IF they can kill the boss with boss being turned up by 6 players. Furthermore as instanced loot (personal loot) you take what "would" have dropped in the current calculations divide that up by 6 put in a random generator to randomly spin the loot around to who gets what and vwola same amount of loot same %chances for same items which would be the same as in mapping, campaign, etc. Add players take loot thats normally dropped as shared loot divide by players in party and that were close to who killed the monster do a random switch around of the loot and drop for who it lands on. Random generation is easy.

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steven0006#1294 wrote:

Not AI generated wrote it myself but sure stay in follow the leader land instead of talking and discussing.


Im sorry I did not check party limit size because I dont play in parties

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt then that it wasn't AI crafted, but missing/confusing basic facts and admitting you haven't even grouped don't lend to a strong argument...

That said my opinion is that grouping in this game is a laughable afterthought. This game is to me for all practical purposes a single player game. I had friends playing at the same time as me this season, but none of us wanted to group because of what a downright unenjoyable spammy seizure inducing lag fest. That alone kills it before any other considerations are even necessary. And that's pretty sad. Grouping in D4 was way more fun. Even grouping with random people. PoE2 misses the mark on grouping by miles.

Blows my mind that people want to leech, and that the game designers have built a game that encourages it. Technically it's not really leaching when it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, but that just tells you about the mentality of people who play PoE, a weird dynamic of Chads and their willing supplicants. Hilarious seeing the rules lists the people looking for leaches would post in global chat...like their leeches practically needed resumes.

But hey if its fun for people to let others play the game for them, let them have their fun.

Since I only grouped a handful of times this season to Crystal farm, and that was pretty boring ultimately and not really much faster than soloing... I didn't really bother to learn the group looting dynamics. Did not feel as a soloer that I was far behind everyone else in the game economy, so can't really speak to whether there is some outrageous imbalance. Would wager that its more a time commitment thing.

More time spent = more spins of the lotto machine, so those who spend more time will get a higher number of quality loot drops in absolute terms, but probably not on average.

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steven0006#1294 wrote:

Im sorry I did not check party limit size because I dont play in parties but sure troll away bud the concepts are still the same weather its 6 8 10 100 10000 or a million players. You read 8 players and got all mad but the facts are true group play is just follow the leader it is not party based there is no raid boss's there is nothing in the game that has to be done with a group so the ONLY reason any of you want group play is so you can benefit from the broken group loot drops point blank period.

If there was 0 benefit on loot drops in POE1 or POE2 not a single one of you would EVER group up with anyone.

Nah I read the whole thing and didn't really feel anything else in it warranted a response personally. That one point was just, imo, an effective summary of all of your paragraphs showing, as you admit, you don't play parties and you don't havethe facts aligned.

Objectively false regarding partying, because people that want to play with friends will play with friend regardless. Even outside thar, every single time I stop my solo grind to group, I lose ROI. Even with a rarity bot and aura stacker, it is worse return for a variety of reasons (though maybe of my friends were more committed grinders or wild be a bit better). Even Empy, arguably the most iconic party farm player, has done the math that he would earn more if he played solo.