Returned for the new League and Melee still reeks of awfulness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKX1aPd6LjQ

Heres some of the earliest gameplay footage we have of the game being advertised at gamescom 2023, more than a year before it launched into EA. According to OP this is where we could find their "original expressed vision of meaningful active combat".
With that in mind I wonder why Jonathan explicitely says this in this video after showing off some combos:

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"It probably isnt worthwhile on these random white monsters but on a rare it matters a lot"

"...so that kind of combo is what you'd be wanting to use if youre fighting a boss"

He also describes sunder as "weak on a single monster" but "absolutely annihilates a pack of monster".

Now I ask you, if you look at the design of the slams/skills in this video and consider the quotes, how can you come away from that and still think the game was originally supposed to be designed in a fundamentally different way, which would allow for your "true melee combat" ?

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Skutz123#5377 wrote:

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Nokkyu#1880 wrote:

Sorry, but if your definition of melee is that you are only allowed to hit 1 enemy at a time, that melee will inherently be bad because there are very often more than 1 enemy on the screen.

That take is just ridiculous.

You seem to be unable to explain what you want because its a paradox to begin with. You want melee to be able to clear as good as other skills, but you also want melee to be restricted to single target strike type of skills.

In the Video he is always up close in the enemies face hitting them with a stick, but using additional effects for proper clear.
He is not hitting the primary target from far away as a ranged attack / spell would.

Now now friend, just because you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't mean you get to put words in my mouth. I'm not asking for melee to AoE clear as good as other skills, there's no paradox except to the confused mind.

I have conceded true melee won't work in this game, because yes it's not going to work to hit one enemy at a time when you have 50 mob swarms coming at you. They'd have needed to stick to the original expressed vision of meaningful active combat, where mobs had more hps, presented in fewer numbers, and presumably took a series of moves or combos to take out. In the case of multiple mobs (but not 50) you'd have to take some defensive maneuvers, not just spam your AoE attacks faster. They wouldn't have put mechanics like parry and active blocking in the game if they had been thinking to bum rush swarm with mobs was the way to go.

But they are now bum rush swarming PCs so real melee isn't going to work. You can call an apple an orange all you want, everyone else still knows it's an apple even if you don't.

Yea of course - everything that is in the game is not "true melee" because you define "true melee" as something that doesn't fit the game.
Thats circular reasoning.

What you want is 1v1 close combat fight. And you can have that with some skills on bosses or harder rares - melee on the other hand is defined completely different.

Everything you say there is present in the game and is utilized even by the video shown earlier. Defensive maneuvers, combos, series of moves, all there - just faster because its an endgame build.

It seems more like your specific build setup isn't working to your liking and you are now generalizing it.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

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Nokkyu#1880 wrote:

No, he doesnt hit enemies with a melee weapon.

So the only difference is a visual reprezentation? If GGG would make it animate a swing as it teleports to enemies, would there be any difference?

Yes if they additionaly make it scale with melee weapon and modifiers. T
That would btw be flicker strike and a pretty well working melee skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMRJnWGgLfw&t=17s&pp=ygUUcG9lIDIgZmxpY2tlciBzdHJpa2U%3D

Of course look and feel are the defining metrics for what a skill is perceived to be in a game, how else do you want to differentiate them?

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Argonlo#6237 wrote:

PoE2 combat is best in class though. Its the best feeling combat in any ARPG.
Sure you have some people that are really mad about melee but he reached the goal he states in that quote.

Did he? Then how are there so many still complaining about it if it is best in class? Besides, he said that he doesn't want to hear about combat being bad ever again... Has that happened?

People will always complain. From my experience: mostly about their own skill issues or just blatantly made up stuff. So that goal is unreachable anyway.

Guys, it's heading nowhere.

Poe2 Melee builds are not your upfront single target bonking stuff. Even if you make it that way, you are destined to arm yourself with heralds, splash or whatever to keep up with the incoming hordes.
That's one thing we clarified in here.

Second thing is that melee builds are fine when compared to ranged ones, considering the poe2 reality.
Melee require better sustain as you cannot just avoid the damage by killing from afar continuously. And it is player's job to cover for that whilst making the build.

Thank you and have a wonderful night!

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Evergrey#7535 wrote:

Guys, it's heading nowhere.

Second thing is that melee builds are fine when compared to ranged ones, considering the poe2 reality.
Melee require better sustain as you cannot just avoid the damage by killing from afar continuously. And it is player's job to cover for that whilst making the build.

Thank you and have a wonderful night!

My hope is that they add something like fortify from PoE1 (but better/more interesting than just generic damage reduction) for melee in PoE2

you too.

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Nokkyu#1880 wrote:

Yea of course - everything that is in the game is not "true melee" because you define "true melee" as something that doesn't fit the game.
Thats circular reasoning.

I dunno, seems like pretty straightforward reasoning to me. I have yet to hear your definition of what 'true melee' is, but from your arguments it seems to be as long as you at least tapped something with your weapon at some point in the process that qualifies the entire process as true melee.

Hardly matters anyway, so I'll just say this and stop. While I like multiple build and play styles including ranged and caster builds, I was very disappointed when trying out melee in PoE2 to find it not only generally problematic and comparatively inferior to ranged builds, and that the only melee builds that were viable in both terms of being able to beat the game in a comparatively timely manner, and to keep up with other players in a resource collecting and trading game, were effectively ranged builds. I don't think there's anything that is going to change that barring a massive overhaul to the general gameplay and combat dynamics that isn't coming.

Offering it as fair warning to anyone who tries to play this game and might expect different from their own understanding of what the word melee means, in RPG and gaming settings.

Cheers.

There is no such thing as "true melee". Just melee.
And the definition is in the game, i don't need to define it any different ;)

"Melee Attacks are those that directly hit with a melee Strike or a Slam, dealing Melee damage. Melee attacks usually scale from Weapon or Unarmed damage.

Any Projectiles these attacks create do not count as Melee damage."

btw interesting new video from one of the more knowledgable creators in the community relevant to the topic:

https://youtu.be/kvbSs6pC6Ug

its fine guys, melee will be magically fixed when they add swords...

One of the main problems with melee are skills that lock you in place like Spearfield and many others

Even if it had 90~95% movement speed penalty, it'd feel so much better to be able to move while using the skill, even the new martial artist ascendency is getting this instead of being unable to move

They made the gap between melee and ranged even bigger with poe 2

With melee i feel like i'm playing an inferior version of the game, nothing beats the advantage of being able to move while attacking from a distance, it's not just stronger, it feels so much better to play too

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Nokkyu#1880 wrote:

There is no such thing as "true melee". Just melee.
And the definition is in the game, i don't need to define it any different ;)

"Melee Attacks are those that directly hit with a melee Strike or a Slam, dealing Melee damage. Melee attacks usually scale from Weapon or Unarmed damage.

Any Projectiles these attacks create do not count as Melee damage."

btw interesting new video from one of the more knowledgable creators in the community relevant to the topic:

https://youtu.be/kvbSs6pC6Ug

Oh, I guess it's not circular logic when you present it this way then?

Anyway, I think you're being a bit pedantic. You could respond to the multitude of individual points/shortcomings with the current melee functionality that I and the OP and others brought up. But there's not really any need, no one's threating your zoomie zoom boom boom put the tokens into the crafting slot machine inventory management simulator. We know where the game is heading now.

If you're going to link a 30 min video it helps if you give a timestamp suggestion to focus on. I scrolled a bit and it looks like a few boss fights using parry? Not really representative of the entirety of gameplay experience, but yes, you can kill bosses with melee skills.