LET ME PLAY 0.1 AGAIN!

I'd say we need more meaningfull combat and skills that can combo with each other...
Also, more defence layers, and dmg output be done by mix of choices (not a spreadsheet to be filled)

yall can always restrict yourselves by own rules... they dont have to make the game worse for everyone else. loot was bad back then. you wanna fight act 1 in white gear? do it! no one is forcing yall to equip good stuff early on (at any point tbh)

Some of these takes are silly. Note that:
- You can't unlearn the game. You can't just go back to the new player experience. You were making mistakes that you are no longer making, which makes bosses easier.
- Lightning Arrow wasn't buffed much, people just didn't see it as very good yet. What the hell does that even translate to in Ruthless?
- Ruthless mode is about item scarcity, not all this weirdness.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

No, we all want an ARPG with good combat. Like we were pitched it will be. It's not complicated.

So I can have a better understanding of what you were referring to, please rank the following games on which one you think has the best combat to the worst...


POE1
POE2
Diablo 2
Diablo 3
Diablo 4
Last Epoch

Out of the ones you've mentioned I'd probably rank them like this:

1. PoE2
2. Diablo 3
3. Diablo 4
4. Last Epoch
5. Diablo 2
6. PoE1

(small note: Never played D4 so it's ranking is based on what gameplay I've seen on youtube)

Obviously, the big elephant in the room here is that none of these have good combat. PoE2 is the best out of all of them just a little bit early on, and in general it does have significantly more potential then all of them... so that's why it wins. But that's a hollow win.

And the best performance it had early on was in 0.1.

Interesting. So when comparing all the games closest to the same playstyle you rank POE2 the best.

Follow up question, what game would you consider to have good combat since you said all of those above do not have it?

EDIT: Since you never played D4 I will save you the trouble, if you think POE2 is braindead, D4 is worse than POE1 by a long ways. Especially if you actually consider everything that goes into a POE1 god build.

we just want something like ruthless, it does not need to be that name exactly.
just make it like 0.1

"

khuzvhan#0406 wrote:

yall can always restrict yourselves by own rules... they dont have to make the game worse for everyone else. loot was bad back then. you wanna fight act 1 in white gear? do it! no one is forcing yall to equip good stuff early on (at any point tbh)

I think it's fine if hardened campaign is a separate (optional) difficulty option.

0.1 campaign has not even been difficult it's just been balanced like a complete garbage and easily getting destroyed by twinks. Before 0.4 there was no such thing as initial damage reduction on bosses so everything been poppin like a balloons in the campaign, especially in 0.1 Not many are even remember that.

"

Dark0ne#6104 wrote:

we just want something like ruthless, it does not need to be that name exactly.
just make it like 0.1

You can have that now if you challenge yourself.

Want less drops? Throw away/don't pick up things you always find useful.

Want less damage? Use off meta skills, hold points, don't level up skills, etc.

Want mobs to do more damage? Take off gear, don't increase HP/ES etc.


There are options there you can do right now to give you that challenge. Splitting the player base OR forcing it onto everyone is not going to have the positive effect you believe it will. Especially if you refuse to impose the challenges on yourself.

Play HC SSF and beat Arbiter non meta if you really want that challenge...

And this is all not considering the feeling of .1 will never be possible again for you unless you develop amnesia and forbid yourself from looking at any guides or builds.

Most people here who played D2 back in the day have the same issue. Going back to the game is still fun and all but it never hits the same as it did when it was new. This applies to all things. Once you have experienced them, that high will never be achieved again. "Chasing the dragon" so to speak. If you know, you know. This is the same premise of wanting an alternate leveling path after first campaign completion. The key point in that is it is optional. Meaning those who want to be campaign purists can still do it over and over. Those who don't, get to create new characters without the hassle of being forced to do all the annoying talk quests and stuff.

"

Immoteph#2974 wrote:

Some of these takes are silly. Note that:
- You can't unlearn the game. You can't just go back to the new player experience. You were making mistakes that you are no longer making, which makes bosses easier.
- Lightning Arrow wasn't buffed much, people just didn't see it as very good yet. What the hell does that even translate to in Ruthless?
- Ruthless mode is about item scarcity, not all this weirdness.

Some of these takes are silly. Note that:
- Knowing the mechanics doesn't mean a boss can't be challenging. There is a massive difference between killing a boss in 10 seconds and being forced into a 2-to-4-minute fight where mistakes actually punish you, regardless of your game knowledge.

- It means only the campaign difficulty would change. Thinking they would revert to less drops is completely braindead. They can easily balance the current campaign to be harder using the exact same loot system, so the Ruthless experience would just be harder rare packs, monster packs, and boss modifiers for the campaign within the same trade league, including a single loot compensation if needed.

- Regarding the "go play a Soulslike" argument: Wanting deep ARPG build customization combined with a highly dangerous, threatening campaign doesn't mean switching genres. Ruthless gives ARPG players the exact tactical monster friction that the main trade league completely lacks.

- To the people crying about the power fantasy: A power fantasy means absolutely nothing if the game hands it to you for free on a silver platter. Earning your character's power through a brutal, high-stakes campaign makes reaching the endgame feel rewarding instead of boring.

- On the claim that HP scaling is artificial: Making campaign monsters actually lethal forces players to care about defensive layers, positioning, and crowd control. Calling it "artificial" is just a massive cope for people who want to mindlessly face-tank every encounter.

- From a development perspective: Pumping monster stat multipliers, rare packs, and boss modifiers inside the campaign takes almost zero development time.

"

Burn4#0434 wrote:

"

Immoteph#2974 wrote:

Some of these takes are silly. Note that:
- You can't unlearn the game. You can't just go back to the new player experience. You were making mistakes that you are no longer making, which makes bosses easier.
- Lightning Arrow wasn't buffed much, people just didn't see it as very good yet. What the hell does that even translate to in Ruthless?
- Ruthless mode is about item scarcity, not all this weirdness.

Some of these takes are silly. Note that:
- Knowing the mechanics doesn't mean a boss can't be challenging. There is a massive difference between killing a boss in 10 seconds and being forced into a 2-to-4-minute fight where mistakes actually punish you, regardless of your game knowledge.

- It means only the campaign difficulty would change. Thinking they would revert to less drops is completely braindead. They can easily balance the current campaign to be harder using the exact same loot system, so the Ruthless experience would just be harder rare packs, monster packs, and boss modifiers for the campaign within the same trade league, including a single loot compensation if needed.

- Regarding the "go play a Soulslike" argument: Wanting deep ARPG build customization combined with a highly dangerous, threatening campaign doesn't mean switching genres. Ruthless gives ARPG players the exact tactical monster friction that the main trade league completely lacks.

- To the people crying about the power fantasy: A power fantasy means absolutely nothing if the game hands it to you for free on a silver platter. Earning your character's power through a brutal, high-stakes campaign makes reaching the endgame feel rewarding instead of boring.

- On the claim that HP scaling is artificial: Making campaign monsters actually lethal forces players to care about defensive layers, positioning, and crowd control. Calling it "artificial" is just a massive cope for people who want to mindlessly face-tank every encounter.

- From a development perspective: Pumping monster stat multipliers, rare packs, and boss modifiers inside the campaign takes almost zero development time.

My guy....

If a boss is 10/10 when you dont know it's moves and how to beat it. How can it still be a 10/10 when you do? And on top of that you also know how to gear better, build skill tree better, know how to use the skills better, etc.

All this back and forth aside... the challenge you want is already there. You just refuse to do it. Use crap gear, dont trade, hold points on the passive tree, dont level up skills, dont play meta builds/combos, etc... The challenge you claim to want is there yet based on how you are talking, you dont do any of it.

If you buff monsters too much (the devs believed they were) then you force players into more meta builds. Ever notice how much an early + levels weapon trivializes the games? Now completely invert that idea. That is what some players face. Others get the early OP drops then claim it is too easy. Same difficulty. Two VERY different experiences. The fact they addressed this saying the average is 2 minutes on a boss means the difficulty is where they want it. Some do it in 10 seconds, others took 4+ minutes. Same difficulty.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 wrote:

Interesting. So when comparing all the games closest to the same playstyle you rank POE2 the best.

Follow up question, what game would you consider to have good combat since you said all of those above do not have it?

EDIT: Since you never played D4 I will save you the trouble, if you think POE2 is braindead, D4 is worse than POE1 by a long ways. Especially if you actually consider everything that goes into a POE1 god build.

There are a lot of games I could give examples of there, but I'll just stick to a few I've played somewhat recently or are otherwise engraved in my mind forever and I know of:

Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Devil May Cry 4
V Rising

With V Rising being the closest to an ARPG in terms of setup. But the idea here is the general principles behind their combat, so to speak. They obviously can't and won't apply 1 to 1.

I could also give souls type games as an example but, aside from the fact that for a lot of people it will trigger something comparable to an allergic reaction on merely hearing those names, I do think combat can be good without necessarily being the pinnacle of difficulty in terms of mechanical responses, so to speak. Although, pinnacle content should definitely resemble that more.

Regarding the D4 comment at the end there, I do not think PoE2 is braindead, neither do I think PoE1 is braindead. If I ever mention that word in relation to them, I specifically single out the combat part. The ranking I did was also solely in terms of combat, and most of the ones under PoE2 there have very close ratings in my head from that perspective, so even if I put PoE1 last there.. it's really not a huge difference between them. The reason I put it last out of all of them is because it is the only game out of those I know of where there are a significant number of build possibilities that can leave you practically playing afk... and that's as far as you can go from good combat.

PoE1's strengths lie almost entirely on the build creation aspects, imo. It's the only reason I've played it and the only aspect I enjoyed out of it. As soon as I would make a build and it became functional and good enough for it to be clear that it will be able to clear all content, pretty much all joy was lost... because the combat gameplay itself was not exciting in the slightest.

The reason I was incredibly excited for PoE2's arrival, was because I was hoping PoE2 will bring that and add good combat on top too which would've made it the most amazing game ever for me. And that's what they've said they would do as well. And .. well.. sadly... we are where we are now.

Oh and, the reason PoE2 came on top on that list, was because it does indeed have the bones and potential for good combat. And it showed that potential the most in 0.1 first act... but it never really went beyond that.