Give Solo Players a Fair Chance

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Evergrey#7535 wrote:

People agreeing to be a Leech instead of playing another content or setting up their own Temple are creating the issue for themselves.

[...]

so players can join the league a bit longer without being gate-kept by economy they are joining to (1st good drop and they are in, but it may be inconvenient to get that when joining late).

Generally speaking i agree with a post because i haven`t touched temple whole league and did fine. It doesn`t even have to be boss specific drop. Catalysts, emotions - price of everything went up. Omen of light farm was money printer for a while.

However quoted parts caught my attention. For most late joiners this "1st good drop" was actually a leech session. Currency and xp wise. Easiest and quickest kickstarter into economy you are already way behind. Thats why i am a bit resistant to blame players because realistically their choice was very limited. And to be specific - i actually think "same" economies each league is boring concept and we should face hyper inflated/deflated economies from time to time. Blaming players for playing rigged game doesn`t feel right tho.

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SalamiHaze#9389 wrote:

Spoiler

Generally speaking i agree with a post because i haven`t touched temple whole league and did fine. It doesn`t even have to be boss specific drop. Catalysts, emotions - price of everything went up. Omen of light farm was money printer for a while.

However quoted parts caught my attention. For most late joiners this "1st good drop" was actually a leech session. Currency and xp wise. Easiest and quickest kickstarter into economy you are already way behind. Thats why i am a bit resistant to blame players because realistically their choice was very limited. And to be specific - i actually think "same" economies each league is boring concept and we should face hyper inflated/deflated economies from time to time. Blaming players for playing rigged game doesn`t feel right tho.

20d for a leech session isn't really that great of a kickstart. Trialmaster entry frags seems better on paper and that's where i would start.
It's not that i blame someone..
It's just that those who complain are the leeches and I am not sure if I can assume they even tried other methods :D

A lot of players think that the rewards from a 6-man party are only multiplied by 6, but that’s simply not true. In reality, the profit from a full 6-player group feels closer to 20x (if you’ve actually tried party farming, you probably know this already), maybe even more.

Some people even use scripts or multi-boxing just to abuse party bonuses and gain those advantages. That’s why I hope solo players can also have a fair chance.

And regarding the usual “just play SSF” argument — I don’t think most people spend an entire league completely alone. Sometimes my friends want to join me, and I can’t realistically stay on SSF forever just because I mainly prefer solo play.

I think some people get too carried away with the concept of optimization and efficiency to the point where they let it overshadow and undermine the idea of PoE2 being a recreational video game.

I've legitimately seen people burn themselves out for reasons that boil down to "market forces made me do it" and we get discussions about how solo players can mimic full parties to increase farm efficiency like man.. just get some friends or ask people to play with you lol.

We do not need to simulate party members to level a playing field of "economic competition".

What is it exactly that someone advocating for this feels that they need a "fair chance" at? Like I am actually interested to know what they are under the impression that by being solo they are prohibited from experiencing.

Part of this is because I'm a ssf player and I've still managed to handedly dominate every piece of content in the game while having farmed enough "solo" gear and currency that if I felt so inclined, I have more than enough to transfer over into trade and turn my character into literal demi-god using the powerful and rare gear that you can practically only obtain from trade.

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

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karsey#2995 wrote:

I think some people get too carried away with the concept of optimization and efficiency to the point where they let it overshadow and undermine the idea of PoE2 being a recreational video game.

I've legitimately seen people burn themselves out for reasons that boil down to "market forces made me do it" and we get discussions about how solo players can mimic full parties to increase farm efficiency like man.. just get some friends or ask people to play with you lol.

We do not need to simulate party members to level a playing field of "economic competition".

What is it exactly that someone advocating for this feels that they need a "fair chance" at? Like I am actually interested to know what they are under the impression that by being solo they are prohibited from experiencing.

Part of this is because I'm a ssf player and I've still managed to handedly dominate every piece of content in the game while having farmed enough "solo" gear and currency that if I felt so inclined, I have more than enough to transfer over into trade and turn my character into literal demi-god using the powerful and rare gear that you can practically only obtain from trade.

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

100%! Nicely said karsey. A lot of these discussions are psychological (where 2 people who have completely different mentalities both walk away believing they are right). It's not logical...it's psychological.

Yesterday I saw someone actually type that if you like to play a game differently than they do THEN you needed to see a shrink. LOL Someone in that conversation may need to see a shrink although it's most likely not the person who likes to play video games in a different fashion.

I agree it's a mindset thing and, in my opinion, driven by the general frustration from people not enjoying their favorite game. Some cannot necessarily even articulate why they're frustrated so they may choose topics that necessarily aren't affecting their quality of life to vent their frustration.

Again, that's how I see it and it's typically easier to see someone else's center than your own so I'm sure I've also posted thoughts borne from my frustration.

You can look in your option menu and see the loot options. You can set allocation to timed or permanent. If you do, then in your instances everyone can only pick up the loot thats allocated to them.

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karsey#2995 wrote:

I think some people get too carried away with the concept of optimization and efficiency to the point where they let it overshadow and undermine the idea of PoE2 being a recreational video game.

I've legitimately seen people burn themselves out for reasons that boil down to "market forces made me do it" and we get discussions about how solo players can mimic full parties to increase farm efficiency like man.. just get some friends or ask people to play with you lol.

We do not need to simulate party members to level a playing field of "economic competition".

What is it exactly that someone advocating for this feels that they need a "fair chance" at? Like I am actually interested to know what they are under the impression that by being solo they are prohibited from experiencing.

Part of this is because I'm a ssf player and I've still managed to handedly dominate every piece of content in the game while having farmed enough "solo" gear and currency that if I felt so inclined, I have more than enough to transfer over into trade and turn my character into literal demi-god using the powerful and rare gear that you can practically only obtain from trade.

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

You yourself said that you play ssf, so it's only natural that it doesn't make sense to you

Why do builds get nerfed? If everyone played ssf, it would make no difference to anyone if we still had rhoa zooming across the map at 200 ms and exploding screens because that wouldn't affect anyone. It would be essentially an offline game where X person doing whatever they're doing makes no difference to you

But the fact is that the vast majority plays trade, and the game is balanced around trade. Those builds get nerfed because this affects the market too heavily and builds that can't do the same simply can't get the same output of div/h, not even close

Stretch that to the extreme and having bugs that we had in the past like rerolling ritual infinitely wouldn't make a difference to you either because you play ssf, so by that logic it shouldn't need to be patched

Granted, this is an extrapolation since playing solo is still very viable, but to simply dismiss the whole leech problem just because you don't play trade is imo inconsiderate

"

iHiems#0168 wrote:

"

karsey#2995 wrote:

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

You yourself said that you play ssf, so it's only natural that it doesn't make sense to you

Why do builds get nerfed? If everyone played ssf, it would make no difference to anyone if we still had rhoa zooming across the map at 200 ms and exploding screens because that wouldn't affect anyone. It would be essentially an offline game where X person doing whatever they're doing makes no difference to you

But the fact is that the vast majority plays trade, and the game is balanced around trade. Those builds get nerfed because this affects the market too heavily and builds that can't do the same simply can't get the same output of div/h, not even close

Stretch that to the extreme and having bugs that we had in the past like rerolling ritual infinitely wouldn't make a difference to you either because you play ssf, so by that logic it shouldn't need to be patched

Granted, this is an extrapolation since playing solo is still very viable, but to simply dismiss the whole leech problem just because you don't play trade is imo inconsiderate

"

WONG#0683 wrote:

And regarding the usual “just play SSF” argument — I don’t think most people spend an entire league completely alone. Sometimes my friends want to join me, and I can’t realistically stay on SSF forever just because I mainly prefer solo play.

Prefacing this as a dumb SSF player who doesn't trade.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong but isn't the OP a SSF player who sometimes plays in parties with his friends?

Is this discussion about nerfing party bonuses (which I'm always in favor of penalizing all non-SSF players lol jk) because of trade or has the original intent morphed to now included trade?

What I'm trying to say: If OP normally plays SSF then was his original point because others in party mode are gaining more loot or when he joins trade league he's behind?

Can someone simplify it for me please!?

"

600lbpanther#3839 wrote:

"

iHiems#0168 wrote:

"

karsey#2995 wrote:

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

You yourself said that you play ssf, so it's only natural that it doesn't make sense to you

Why do builds get nerfed? If everyone played ssf, it would make no difference to anyone if we still had rhoa zooming across the map at 200 ms and exploding screens because that wouldn't affect anyone. It would be essentially an offline game where X person doing whatever they're doing makes no difference to you

But the fact is that the vast majority plays trade, and the game is balanced around trade. Those builds get nerfed because this affects the market too heavily and builds that can't do the same simply can't get the same output of div/h, not even close

Stretch that to the extreme and having bugs that we had in the past like rerolling ritual infinitely wouldn't make a difference to you either because you play ssf, so by that logic it shouldn't need to be patched

Granted, this is an extrapolation since playing solo is still very viable, but to simply dismiss the whole leech problem just because you don't play trade is imo inconsiderate

"

WONG#0683 wrote:

And regarding the usual “just play SSF” argument — I don’t think most people spend an entire league completely alone. Sometimes my friends want to join me, and I can’t realistically stay on SSF forever just because I mainly prefer solo play.

Prefacing this as a dumb SSF player who doesn't trade.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong but isn't the OP a SSF player who sometimes plays in parties with his friends?

Is this discussion about nerfing party bonuses (which I'm always in favor of penalizing all non-SSF players lol jk) because of trade or has the original intent morphed to now included trade?

What I'm trying to say: If OP normally plays SSF then was his original point because others in party mode are gaining more loot or when he joins trade league he's behind?

Can someone simplify it for me please!?

Idk about the op since I can't speak for them, however:

If the op plays ssf and thinks solo should be buffed to be equal or similar to party, then I'm completely against it

If the op wants party to be nerfed so that we can get rid of leech and multiboxing, then I agree

When someone talks about party I just assume trade, since if they're playing ssf it would just be straight up jealously or they can't get loot. In any case, you don't need party to get loot enough to clear the entire game easily

The whole point of asking for a party nerf (usually) is that it destroys the economy in trade

"

iHiems#0168 wrote:

Spoiler

"

karsey#2995 wrote:

I think some people get too carried away with the concept of optimization and efficiency to the point where they let it overshadow and undermine the idea of PoE2 being a recreational video game.

I've legitimately seen people burn themselves out for reasons that boil down to "market forces made me do it" and we get discussions about how solo players can mimic full parties to increase farm efficiency like man.. just get some friends or ask people to play with you lol.

We do not need to simulate party members to level a playing field of "economic competition".

What is it exactly that someone advocating for this feels that they need a "fair chance" at? Like I am actually interested to know what they are under the impression that by being solo they are prohibited from experiencing.

Part of this is because I'm a ssf player and I've still managed to handedly dominate every piece of content in the game while having farmed enough "solo" gear and currency that if I felt so inclined, I have more than enough to transfer over into trade and turn my character into literal demi-god using the powerful and rare gear that you can practically only obtain from trade.

It makes me think that it's a mindset thing behind these sort of requests more than anything else.

You yourself said that you play ssf, so it's only natural that it doesn't make sense to you

Why do builds get nerfed? If everyone played ssf, it would make no difference to anyone if we still had rhoa zooming across the map at 200 ms and exploding screens because that wouldn't affect anyone. It would be essentially an offline game where X person doing whatever they're doing makes no difference to you

But the fact is that the vast majority plays trade, and the game is balanced around trade. Those builds get nerfed because this affects the market too heavily and builds that can't do the same simply can't get the same output of div/h, not even close

Stretch that to the extreme and having bugs that we had in the past like rerolling ritual infinitely wouldn't make a difference to you either because you play ssf, so by that logic it shouldn't need to be patched

Granted, this is an extrapolation since playing solo is still very viable, but to simply dismiss the whole leech problem just because you don't play trade is imo inconsiderate

Maybe I wasn't clear, I understand the reasons for doing all of those things (economic pressures) - what I am confused about is why people bother to torture themselves over it past a point of recreation and into what looks like unpleasant compulsory engagement.

I'm saying that optimizing is fine but as soon as you get to the level where you're optimizing the fun out of the game, that's where a line should be drawn. And that the "economic pressures" that people claim push them into that territory are not really a good excuse because it's possible to do anything you want to do in this game without devolving into a hyper-efficient multi-boxing meta-slave restricted to participating in 100% optimized content.

The purpose of the post is a suggestion aligned with that mentality - it's a recommendation to change a base PvE game aspect in order to accommodate success within a derivative PvP-economy mini-game by suggesting solo players be able to mimic extras in their zones in order to "have a fair [economic] chance" that matches the economic "power and rewards" of larger groups.

I understand it 100%.

I'm questioning the necessity of it, because the PvP economy game is derivative of the "main" game, whether you want to treat it like the main game or not.

The ability to obtain gear through trade does influence balance and drop rates to a certain degree, but it's just one aspect - the game isn't only balanced around trade. The only reason things have value to be traded in the first place is a result of the many other precursor aspects that exist underneath the level of trade.

Self-inflicting one's self with a compulsion to be 150% efficient within a PvP economic mini-game at all costs doesn't strike me as exactly the most constructive basis from which to be making game balance or design adjustments.

In fact, I think it's probably better to make balance and design changes which would prevent someone from thinking that they need to behave like that in order to "have a chance" in the game.