"Meaningful Combat" Is Anti-ARPG

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It's a single player game with global chat (for sh-t talk) and trade.

Nobody ever parties in the dream you described in your post, lol. Path of Exile players are basically social recluses, so much so that many people (with the game official support) even goes SSF for even more social recluse. I bet some of them even turn off global chat, lol.

Go play WoW and do 25 man raid or something if you want party games that much.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It's a single player game with global chat (for sh-t talk) and trade.

Nobody ever parties in the dream you described in your post, lol. Path of Exile players are basically social recluses, so much so that many people (with the game official support) even goes SSF for even more social recluse. I bet some of them even turn off global chat, lol.

Go play WoW and do 25 man raid or something if you want party games that much.

You keep proving my point for me.

If we are going by actual words, a "single player game" is one where you are literally the only human in your game world. No parties, no other players in towns, no trading with humans, no global chat, nothing.

PoE is not that. It never has been. It has towns full of players, public instances, parties, guilds, trade, chat, group MF, events built around multiple people, the whole thing. You can choose to ignore all of that and play like it is offline, sure, but that makes it a you problem, not a genre definition.

Saying "it is a single player game... with global chat and trade" is like saying "I live alone... with three roommates." If you are going to die on that hill, at least admit the hill is made of copium.

As for "nobody ever parties in the dream you described" – speak for yourself. I play with 2–3 friends basically every evening. We did the campaign together, now we map together, goof around, split tasks, share drops, the usual. Just because your social tab is a ghost town does not mean everyone's is.

And the WoW comment is just weird. Nobody here is asking for 25-man raid logs and color-coded spreadsheets. The whole "slow pace" argument is literally that PoE2 is drifting toward brain-off zoom where the optimal way to play is run as fast as possible, erase screens, and never actually engage with what is happening. You do not stop for elites, you barely notice bosses, you just hold W and spam until the map is empty.

Some of us want the combat in an action RPG to matter at least occasionally. Not every pack, not Dark Souls on every white mob, just enough that you sometimes have to think, reposition, maybe work with another person instead of speedrunning past everything.

If you like solo zoom simulator, fine, enjoy it. But trying to relabel PoE as a pure single player game and pretending nobody groups up just because you do not care about that side of it is pure fantasy. At least argue for your preferred playstyle honestly instead of rewriting what the game actually is.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It's a single player game with global chat (for sh-t talk) and trade.

Nobody ever parties in the dream you described in your post, lol. Path of Exile players are basically social recluses, so much so that many people (with the game official support) even goes SSF for even more social recluse. I bet some of them even turn off global chat, lol.

Go play WoW and do 25 man raid or something if you want party games that much.

You keep proving my point for me.

If we are going by actual words, a "single player game" is one where you are literally the only human in your game world. No parties, no other players in towns, no trading with humans, no global chat, nothing.

PoE is not that. It never has been. It has towns full of players, public instances, parties, guilds, trade, chat, group MF, events built around multiple people, the whole thing. You can choose to ignore all of that and play like it is offline, sure, but that makes it a you problem, not a genre definition.

Saying "it is a single player game... with global chat and trade" is like saying "I live alone... with three roommates." If you are going to die on that hill, at least admit the hill is made of copium.

As for "nobody ever parties in the dream you described" – speak for yourself. I play with 2–3 friends basically every evening. We did the campaign together, now we map together, goof around, split tasks, share drops, the usual. Just because your social tab is a ghost town does not mean everyone's is.

And the WoW comment is just weird. Nobody here is asking for 25-man raid logs and color-coded spreadsheets. The whole "slow pace" argument is literally that PoE2 is drifting toward brain-off zoom where the optimal way to play is run as fast as possible, erase screens, and never actually engage with what is happening. You do not stop for elites, you barely notice bosses, you just hold W and spam until the map is empty.

Some of us want the combat in an action RPG to matter at least occasionally. Not every pack, not Dark Souls on every white mob, just enough that you sometimes have to think, reposition, maybe work with another person instead of speedrunning past everything.

If you like solo zoom simulator, fine, enjoy it. But trying to relabel PoE as a pure single player game and pretending nobody groups up just because you do not care about that side of it is pure fantasy. At least argue for your preferred playstyle honestly instead of rewriting what the game actually is.

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Slower gameplay at least allows people to actually play together and be a bit tactical. Someone can tank, someone can focus on damage, people can react to what is happening on screen instead of just speedrunning it. Yes, that nudges things closer to MMO style in some ways, but ARPG was not always a zoomers-only genre. Titan Quest, Diablo 1 and other early titles are basically the grandparents of ARPGs, and they were a lot closer to "meaningful combat" than to "hold one button and delete half the map offscreen."

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It's a single player game with global chat (for sh-t talk) and trade.

Nobody ever parties in the dream you described in your post, lol. Path of Exile players are basically social recluses, so much so that many people (with the game official support) even goes SSF for even more social recluse. I bet some of them even turn off global chat, lol.

Go play WoW and do 25 man raid or something if you want party games that much.

You keep proving my point for me.

If we are going by actual words, a "single player game" is one where you are literally the only human in your game world. No parties, no other players in towns, no trading with humans, no global chat, nothing.

PoE is not that. It never has been. It has towns full of players, public instances, parties, guilds, trade, chat, group MF, events built around multiple people, the whole thing. You can choose to ignore all of that and play like it is offline, sure, but that makes it a you problem, not a genre definition.

Saying "it is a single player game... with global chat and trade" is like saying "I live alone... with three roommates." If you are going to die on that hill, at least admit the hill is made of copium.

As for "nobody ever parties in the dream you described" – speak for yourself. I play with 2–3 friends basically every evening. We did the campaign together, now we map together, goof around, split tasks, share drops, the usual. Just because your social tab is a ghost town does not mean everyone's is.

And the WoW comment is just weird. Nobody here is asking for 25-man raid logs and color-coded spreadsheets. The whole "slow pace" argument is literally that PoE2 is drifting toward brain-off zoom where the optimal way to play is run as fast as possible, erase screens, and never actually engage with what is happening. You do not stop for elites, you barely notice bosses, you just hold W and spam until the map is empty.

Some of us want the combat in an action RPG to matter at least occasionally. Not every pack, not Dark Souls on every white mob, just enough that you sometimes have to think, reposition, maybe work with another person instead of speedrunning past everything.

If you like solo zoom simulator, fine, enjoy it. But trying to relabel PoE as a pure single player game and pretending nobody groups up just because you do not care about that side of it is pure fantasy. At least argue for your preferred playstyle honestly instead of rewriting what the game actually is.

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yetyzyma#6701 wrote:

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It's a single player game with global chat (for sh-t talk) and trade.

Nobody ever parties in the dream you described in your post, lol. Path of Exile players are basically social recluses, so much so that many people (with the game official support) even goes SSF for even more social recluse. I bet some of them even turn off global chat, lol.

Go play WoW and do 25 man raid or something if you want party games that much.

You keep proving my point for me.

If we are going by actual words, a "single player game" is one where you are literally the only human in your game world. No parties, no other players in towns, no trading with humans, no global chat, nothing.

PoE is not that. It never has been. It has towns full of players, public instances, parties, guilds, trade, chat, group MF, events built around multiple people, the whole thing. You can choose to ignore all of that and play like it is offline, sure, but that makes it a you problem, not a genre definition.

Saying "it is a single player game... with global chat and trade" is like saying "I live alone... with three roommates." If you are going to die on that hill, at least admit the hill is made of copium.

As for "nobody ever parties in the dream you described" – speak for yourself. I play with 2–3 friends basically every evening. We did the campaign together, now we map together, goof around, split tasks, share drops, the usual. Just because your social tab is a ghost town does not mean everyone's is.

And the WoW comment is just weird. Nobody here is asking for 25-man raid logs and color-coded spreadsheets. The whole "slow pace" argument is literally that PoE2 is drifting toward brain-off zoom where the optimal way to play is run as fast as possible, erase screens, and never actually engage with what is happening. You do not stop for elites, you barely notice bosses, you just hold W and spam until the map is empty.

Some of us want the combat in an action RPG to matter at least occasionally. Not every pack, not Dark Souls on every white mob, just enough that you sometimes have to think, reposition, maybe work with another person instead of speedrunning past everything.

If you like solo zoom simulator, fine, enjoy it. But trying to relabel PoE as a pure single player game and pretending nobody groups up just because you do not care about that side of it is pure fantasy. At least argue for your preferred playstyle honestly instead of rewriting what the game actually is.

I think that the discussion itself bouncing between two extremes. Reality is in the middle.
That opinion of PoE becomes pure zoom simulator or happy mmo-like baldurs gate something isn’t on table, and it never was.
Sure thing is ggg cannot simply stand against trends in industry. MMOs sadly slowly dying, coop games also. Market is turning into single player of confrontation pvp like battle royal or pure fps. It’s not cliff-edge change, but it’s going on for a long time.

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

By your logic dark souls is also a multiplayer game, because you can see other people and interact with them.

topkek.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

Still don't get why slowing down the game would connect with the dream you conjured about people happily partying and doing role-based gameplay and what not.

PoE2 have already been drastically slowed down compared to PoE1, where is the supposed party games happy land that you just described?

It's just... silly and detached..

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

MMORPGs died like a decade ago bro.

RIP WoW.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

MMORPGs died like a decade ago bro.

RIP WoW.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

Theres a problem with the slow and methodical combat in ARPG game.

ARPG game, since Diablo 2, have established it's identity on a few pillars, and grind is one of them.

You literally grind on certain content for hours on end to find a certain special / rare items.

I still don't understand slow and methodical people stance on this.

Do you really want to grind hours on end rolling, dodging, parrying, being "methodical and tactical", like seriously, all that for hours and hours?

Or do you just want a Dark Souls game where you have good combat system?

Because that's not what make ARPG shines. Zoom Zoom was born from the need to comfortably and pleasantly hours on end farming. It's quite literally derived from one of the core pillar that defines modern ARPG.

And before you want to debate on how I can tell you that grind is certainly one of the core pillar, re-read "GGG" name in full, its: "Grinding Gear Games"

It boggles the mind that the meaningful combat crowd is so anti-ARPG. You come here, demand the game and genre to be something else, to be just like your "omg its Dark Souls Elden Ring", not knowing what made the game and genre great in the first place.

PoE1 got tons of janky 5 or more buttons builds. But rarely nobody ever plays them, why? Because it's horrible to grind with, so the community naturally attracted to and play what makes them feel good. On contrary to your belief, PoE1 actually have the creativity freedom to choose the way you play, you can play multiple buttons builds or 1 button zoomy build. PoE2 enforcing multiple button comboing generator/spender non-sense is just restricting.

The fact that PoE1 is full of zoom zoom 1 button build is because it makes sense and feels good to play, not this "the game has degenerated into 1 button build without any meaningful combat" rhetoric.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

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bloomhead#3858 wrote:

By your logic dark souls is also a multiplayer game, because you can see other people and interact with them.

topkek.

There is a pretty big difference between:
- a primarily single player game with some asynchronous/limited co-op hooks (Souls style phantoms, messages, invasions), and
- an online ARPG that is built from the ground up around a shared economy, public towns, parties and group MF.

Dark Souls is a single player game with online features.

Path of Exile is an online multiplayer ARPG.

You can absolutely play PoE solo, but that does not magically turn off global chat, trade, town lobbies, party play, guilds, public instances and so on. Those are not cute little extras bolted on the side, they are core systems the game and economy are designed around.

Saying "PoE is a single player game… with chat and trade and parties and shared hubs" is like saying "I live alone… with three roommates." You can feel that way, sure, but words still mean things.

So no, the "by your logic Dark Souls is multiplayer" gotcha does not land. Dark Souls has online. PoE is online. One is designed as single player with some interaction, the other is designed as a multiplayer economy and environment that you are choosing to ignore. Those are not the same thing.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

Still don't get why slowing down the game would connect with the dream you conjured about people happily partying and doing role-based gameplay and what not.

PoE2 have already been drastically slowed down compared to PoE1, where is the supposed party games happy land that you just described?

It's just... silly and detached..

It is really not that mysterious.

When the optimal way to play is "run in a straight line at mach 3 and delete everything offscreen with one button," there is no room for roles or cooperation. The first person into the pack kills it, everyone else gets to admire the ground textures. You cannot tank for someone if the mob dies before your block animation starts, and you cannot support anyone if the boss is already a loot pile.

Slowing things down does not magically spawn perfect holy trinity raids, but it does one crucial thing: it gives the game enough time for other people to actually do something.

- Mobs live long enough that positioning matters.
- Boss mechanics last longer than a single global.
- Someone can focus on taking heat, someone on damage, someone on utility, instead of everyone just racing to tag the pixel first.

That is exactly the direction GGG has been pushing PoE2 toward: more deliberate, more "your decisions in combat matter," less Roomba-with-a-laser-pointer. If it was just meant to be PoE1-but-again, they did not need a sequel, a balance manifesto would have been enough.

And yes, I am firmly in the slow-combat camp. Titan Quest, Diablo 1, that whole branch of the family tree where you actually look at what is trying to kill you instead of speedrunning past it. You take your time, you think about pulls, you kite, you back off when things look sketchy. Every fight can go bad if you stop thinking for five seconds.

If your dream ARPG is holding one button and watching the entire screen evaporate on autopilot, fair enough. Mine is an action RPG where the "action" part is something I actually participate in, not just a side effect of my movespeed stat.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

MMORPGs died like a decade ago bro.

RIP WoW.

GW2 isn't dead - quite active still :)