If the Auction House system will come to PoE1...

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exsea#1724 wrote:

getting to level 100 from a 10USD purchase shouldnt be considered p2w right?

you have to play the game, you make it sound like you get auto level 100 from owning stash tabs

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AlvinL_#4492 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

getting to level 100 from a 10USD purchase shouldnt be considered p2w right?

you have to play the game, you make it sound like you get auto level 100 from owning stash tabs

i m asking you a question, because you took a jab at stash tabs being p2w.

stash tabs save you tons of time.

so is an item that gets you to 100 in 1 shot p2w or not?

Not everything is FREE!

Even in a completely socialist economy. you still gotta PAY for the EXTRAs!!

p.s. It don't cost that much $$.

Support GGG if you play the game.

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Nubatron#4333 wrote:

I think the main difference for me is that it unlocks something actually in game: asynchronous automated trading. That feels big enough that it is worth calling out.

I think it could all be fixed if they just called the free version game an extremely extensive demo that unlocks nearly the entire game. With everything you need to store now, tabs came ever closer to the line of F2P -- but mule accounts could still exist so there was a way. Premium tabs made listing things easier, but there was a workaround still (though I think most people don't know it). And now there is the new way to trade which has no work around whatsoever. That's an important distinction for me.

This isn't a problem for me specifically btw.

sure, i agree its a distinct change now, absolutely.



the way i view the landscape is we have 3 categories. i dont think charging people for a product is immoral as long as its within reason, but im listing these in order of i guess consumer friendly/moral developer ish?



1. F2P. its free to play, its the most consumer friendly way to release a game.

2. P2P. pay to play the game. this is the standard model for games since weve had games, everyone needs paid for their work. people made this game, you buy it for what is hopefully a fair standard price and then you can play it.

3. P2W. this is where you can keep paying money and your power keeps growing with investment in an fairly unlimited fashion, you can pay an unreasonable amount and keep getting a significant power advantage over people who havent paid or have only paid a reasonable amount one would expect to pay for a game.




so for me poe1 is now bluring the line a little between being F2P and being P2P. i can play it for free, do all the content, enjoy it for 100s of hours all free. but if i want to use the auction house in game for items in order to be competitive in the community i need to pay an entry fee that is roughly in line with the cost of entry of a pay 2 play game that i need to buy.

is that pay 2 win? i dont rly think it is. is diablo 2 pay to win? its not right? but when D2 was released i had to go and buy it, i couldnt access the games content and beat it without paying money. but that was a reasonable set cost and once i paid it i was on a fairly level pitch. if i paid £30 for the game a guy couldnt pay £300 to be so much more powerful that i couldnt compete, and then a guy who pays £3000 is the next step up and another guy has paid £30,000 and no one can touch him. thats pay 2 win. having an entry fee isnt pay 2 win, its just pay 2 play which is perfectly reasonable if the entry cost is reasonable.



poe1 is F2P, but to access the whole thing with all the features its essentially pay 2 play in practice. its way more consumer friendly than a standard pay 2 play game because you get to just download the game for free, play it with your mates, 100s of hours and see if u want to pay that £30 or £50 for the feature complete experience.

every other arpg is actual pay 2 play, i got D1 on launch, i had to buy it, D2, 3, 4, LE, Grim Dawn, Wolcen, Titan Quest, Torchlight, i bought all these games for a price that was in the ballpark of buying a supporter pack for poe and then getting a currency tab, map tab, some premium trade tabs etc.




so i do agree its a shift and its not entirely F2P, its less F2P than it was before and it was already slightly blurring that line with the tab situation. obviously Nuba me and you have a ton of supporter packs, 1000s of hours played, wealthy experienced players here for over a decade, none of this effects us. its just a principal thing and i do think a line has been crossed. but for me its just crossing a line into the world of pay 2 play which is where virtually every other game ive played in last 35 years permanently lives. so i just feel like thats different to it being P2W, because when a game is really pay 2 win thats an awful thing and i would be extremely upset with GGG if they ever did that.

i think this is a soft pay 2 play and they remain the most consumer friendly arpg ive ever played. but yes, slightly less so than before this for sure.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

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stash tabs save you tons of time.

agreed

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so is an item that gets you to 100 in 1 shot p2w or not

it would be, if it existed

how are the two things you talked about related?

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Nubatron#4333 wrote:

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Piousqd#0073 wrote:

-1 for free tabs.

Primary reason: having a monetary barrier to automating trade that is account bound creates a large amount of friction for botting. It is a lot more work for someone to create multiple accounts to use for it, if each one requires associating to a payment. It also allows GGG to more effectively ban botters, by referencing the payment form to find commonality.

Secondary Reason: GGG deserves to get paid for all the work they put in these games. The game is free to pay. They have held true to the "no purchased power" ethos, stop complaining about the ability to purchase QoL.

This is beyond QoL. This crosses the line easily into P2W in my mind. I don't mind them getting paid, but I don't think this meets the F2P threshold since we're talking about something that very much impacts the ability to play the game.

It doesn't impact your ability to play the game at all, as trading is not a requirement and only a mode the game offers.

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This is beyond QoL. This crosses the line easily into P2W in my mind. I don't mind them getting paid, but I don't think this meets the F2P threshold since we're talking about something that very much impacts the ability to play the game.

Regardless on anyone's opinion of if something is P2W or not is irrelevant in the scope of if it's F2P most of the time. You can play the game and access all of the playable content for free.

There's plenty of things to do without being able to list items through the API, mind you that you can still use the currency exchange and also buy from the trade API without paying anything. Additionally a stash tab isn't that much money for most of the people who play and once you buy anything in this game, you get to use it forever. Sure, there are people that can't afford it. That's the case with a lot of things and not something I'm going to agree with crucifying GGG over. Hell, they'll even port everything you bought to the 2nd game. I know that's not what you want to hear but that's a hell of a lot more generous than any other game I've played, just about.

This is also the first time anything like this has come to the original PoE in this context. 2 years ago this was still something no one thought GGG would even consider doing considering they've held steadfast to their "no auction house" vision since the inception on the game. 12 years since 1.0 now. So to see them compromise on this is a huge leap from where we ever were.

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AlvinL_#4492 wrote:

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exsea#1724 wrote:

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stash tabs save you tons of time.

agreed

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so is an item that gets you to 100 in 1 shot p2w or not

it would be, if it existed

how are the two things you talked about related?

good that now we've established that

1. getting to level 100 from a paid item is p2w, then we can say its p2w because it saves time and effort.

2. stashes save time and effort.

therefore, stashes are p2w.

the amount of time and effort you save with preem stashes are a huge lot over time. many people dont realize just how much time and effort they save as they just buy them casually.

think about it. if you want to use the 1500 fusing recipe. how many stacks of fusings do you need? sometimes if we auto craft, the system will auto deduct from our stash and not "1stack at a time". the stacks would be incomplete. but with a preem stash, you just barely glance and you know how many you have.

tho its true that stashes are pay for convenience. the convenience is so great over time that its literally p2w.

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Saf3tyhazard#3440 wrote:

Regardless on anyone's opinion of if something is P2W or not is irrelevant in the scope of if it's F2P most of the time. You can play the game and access all of the playable content for free.

its F2P most of the time, so its P2W sometimes? lol

yes of course you can access all of the playable content for free, but the most common definition of p2w accepted by gaming community by large is

"can you purchase something in game with real money that gives you an advantage over a player who does not"

the answer is simply yes. convenience for auto sorting currency/maps/div cards and so many different things. the time and effort saved should never be dismissed.

i've played this game as a f2p for a long time. back when i felt that being a pirate/free player forever is my life goal. its so damn tedious. even when i had preem stashes. its still tedious. and when specialized tabs were a thing. omfg. best purchase ever.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

3. P2W. this is where you can keep paying money and your power keeps growing with investment in an fairly unlimited fashion, you can pay an unreasonable amount and keep getting a significant power advantage over people who havent paid or have only paid a reasonable amount one would expect to pay for a game.




so for me poe1 is now bluring the line a little between being F2P and being P2P. i can play it for free, do all the content, enjoy it for 100s of hours all free. but if i want to use the auction house in game for items in order to be competitive in the community i need to pay an entry fee that is roughly in line with the cost of entry of a pay 2 play game that i need to buy.



so i do agree its a shift and its not entirely F2P, its less F2P than it was before and it was already slightly blurring that line with the tab situation.

i think this is a soft pay 2 play and they remain the most consumer friendly arpg ive ever played. but yes, slightly less so than before this for sure.

soft p2p.... theres a different word for it. p2w.

in your definition of p2w, power advantage. time and effort is actually power advantage. as i illustrated with my insta level 100 p2w example. most players would rightfully assume such an item would be p2w. why? it saves time and effort. i would argue anyone and everyone can hit 100 now. all you need is... time and effort. reaching 100 does give you power, and the "currency" required is time and effort.

stash tabs save players a huge amount of time and effort.

that said, i know i am fiercely arguing that poe is p2w. it is because i find it weird that people would turn a blind eye on this fact. despite that i would also say on the scale of p2w ness, it is VERY low. its an acceptable p2w that most players would turn a blind eye. me myself i've supported ggg despite being fiercely against p2w, simply because on the grand scale of p2w bs, it is very low.

Remember that you can convert stashtabs still, that was bought before this was added as a feature! so shouldent really be a problem GGG employee's gotta eat aswell.