GGG! Please listen to your players/customers!

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vexorian#9572 wrote:

"The customer is always right in matters of taste" is just a completely wrong approach to video games. When people say things like "the customer is always right" they were talking about businesses that needed to appeal to basically everyone. On video games, that is the wrong approach. In regards of game design you want something that appeals to a very specific group of people and you shouldn't be afraid of turning off people who don't fit that profile. When games try to appeal to everyone , that's death spiral territory. You are either going to end up lucking out and making something massive like fortnite or you are most likely going to make something that appeals to no one and doesn't stand out.

Then you say something like "Deadeye is meta" and "Deadeye is meta because ..." those are really arguable questions. I don't think the meta specifically says anything about taste. It only talks about what's strongest. And not even that. Because there are documented cases of games that have gotten meta refreshes just because the community changed their mindset even though there weren't any new updates to those games in years.

I assure you they don't want to lose the majority of their player base over time. Their whole business model shows that they definitely want money, and a lot of it. If PoE 2 eventually ends up with only 10k players on average, they will more than likely look into feedback to see what went wrong and change things to get more people playing again. That's exactly what they've done in PoE 1 when they see a lot of people quit league earlier than expected. If most arpg players enjoy it, then great! Maybe I'm wrong. But right now, I'm seeing a big bag of mixed reviews, and some of the most upvoted posts for the week are stating the same complaints among other ones. Have they made a change to the game that ruined your fun? Then post about it being reversed. And if I'm the only one with this complaint, then nothing will come off it and you don't have to worry about my complaint/feedback affecting you or the game you seem to love. Also, who would be against more skill/class balance in most ARPGs!? Seems like you just want to argue or something. If there's many skills and classes that are not even close to as strong as the ones listed in this forum, then what are you doing right now? Smh.

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MykroPsykoz#6286 wrote:

The thing is : people play a good popular easy league starter, but often they aren't motivated to do another char with different build to spend there money in. And anyway, what's the issue with class popularity ? It's a pve game.

What's the issue with more balance so people can play more of the skills and classes that the developers worked hard to put into the game!? What are you even arguing? No balance or buffs ever? Get a grip!

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CyberData4#5867 wrote:

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

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Ph33lon#2427 wrote:

also not sure what your actual issue is - sure deadeye is easy to level and play --> a good choice for a league starter

but it's far from the only valid and powerful build.

also as others pointed out - the 0.3 patch has been the best one so far if we're talkinbg about considering and implementing community feedback

If there was as much balance as you're claiming there is, more people would be playing more builds. Go watch SirGog's recent YouTube video. By far, most people are playing one build, and there is a core reason for that. Period. I don't know what you're trying to argue or defend here. Having such a large scale imbalance in classes and skills is a huge issue.

Streamers is the reason why. People just see someone say something is cracked and they flock to that like lemmings.

What are you arguing here, exactly? No balance is needed? Most skills and classes are close to perfect as is, and most are near equals in power? Get a grip! If you enjoy arguing for fun or to feel some sense of importance/superiority, how about you go to school to become a lawyer.

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

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MykroPsykoz#6286 wrote:

The thing is : people play a good popular easy league starter, but often they aren't motivated to do another char with different build to spend there money in. And anyway, what's the issue with class popularity ? It's a pve game.

What's the issue with more balance so people can play more of the skills and classes that the developers worked hard to put into the game!? What are you even arguing? No balance or buffs ever? Get a grip!

Issue with bugged spell / tree nod obviousely need to be fix, but i have no fundamental problem with the fact that some class can be harder to play than other or need more investment to be effective.

That provide some prestige to their user. "Look ! It's a performing amazon ! nice !"

Or "look ! it's a noob deadeye ! bouh !"

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DistributedAutomaton#5739 wrote:

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

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DistributedAutomaton#5739 wrote:

I posted my invoker in my signature because I got so tired of reading posts like this. It's virtually a one-button build. I only use ice strike unless fighting a boss or a hefty rare. Built in SSF on league start.

Well, you obviously just wanna try to prove someone wrong/argue. If you actually read and understood my whole post, I clearly said there's a FEW meta builds, and the majority of skills aren't being used for a reason. Ice strike monk has been strong since launch. So yes, you're playing a meta build and acting like most skills in the game are balanced? Smh. If you're having so much fun, how about you go play the game instead of confirming my original post, while somehow thinking you're arguing against it.

"Deadeye is the meta (by a long shot)" <-- that just isn't true. And it was the thesis statement of your OP.

I've only played invoker so far in 0.3, but I strongly suspect there are at least 20 very strong builds. There are a lot of passives now, and Well of Souls crafting is amazing.

Also: TY to the poster who mentioned crossbow lich. I might never have thought of that on my own, and it sounds really interesting.

Crossbow lich is only strong because of money. Deadeye wins by miles because she is strong at all level of progression, not just when you invest tons of resources on it. She is really fast in moving and killing monster and bosses in acts especially after first ascendancy compared to other class, she is even faster and deal even more damage with proper investment on top of having insane defensive / speed in the endgame.(tailwind and windward should be removed or readjusted in PoE 2).

This game is still just the same like PoE 1, resources acquisition efficiency. Being fast = faster to reach places that allow you to get better quality of loots = able to establish economic power early in the market = win.

Not to mention GGG never ban anyone that exploit something that clearly not supposed to be working like that / oversight in game-mechanic unless its really dire, for example in this 0.3 :

1) You can get a reroll when using the omen of abyssal echoes after unveiling the desecrated modifier. It supposed to be using the omen first then unveil, not using the omen after the unveil incase of bad mods. Nobody has been banned for exploiting this.
2) Abyssal essences. In before, desecrating "mark of the abyss" mod guaranteeing tier 1 mod. Nobody has been banned for exploiting this.

0.1 example, temporalis dupe.
0.2 example, respawning pinnacle boss over and over again, and the boss still dropping the loot.

PoE 1 example in recent league, T16 originator map able to roll all T17 exclusive mods. Considered as bug, and yet nobody has been banned for farming that maps or farm in that map.

Their policy in term of game exploit is never clear. Some exploits is ban-able, while others are not. The most stupid ban that I have ever seen from GGG is when 0.2 release, they also release a ritual tablet that allows infinite reroll. A player that can read, will know this ritual tablet is broken as f, so some players that able to reach endgame maps faster than everyone else took advantage of it. The result ? They got banned. They got banned for "exploit" and yet everything was working as the item described. They got banned because someone in GGG didn't do their work to manage unique items in 0.2.

In the end, speed = king and exploit early, exploit often. GGG doesn't have clear stance on what is considered as exploit or not. If something that is not working as supposed to and giving advantage to players and able to impact the economy, no matter how small it is, is considered as exploit, then anyone that participate in the said exploit should get banned. But they dont.

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

What's the issue with more balance so people can play more of the skills and classes that the developers worked hard to put into the game!? What are you even arguing? No balance or buffs ever? Get a grip!

You are now saying something reasonable. If you had started here, your OP would have been received very differently.

When people start as beginners, they have to face monsters with a strong desire to attack, while the game's guidance design is so poor. I seriously doubt whether the GGG employees have truly played the game. Playing this game made me truly feel what frustration is. Goodbye GGG.

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

What are you arguing here, exactly? No balance is needed? Most skills and classes are close to perfect as is, and most are near equals in power? Get a grip! If you enjoy arguing for fun or to feel some sense of importance/superiority, how about you go to school to become a lawyer.

Stop with the "What are you arguing" line. Then you insert a strawman that I think no balance is needed.

What I'm saying is that your premise that people play the meta because there are no viable alternatives is wrong. People play the meta because players have a min/max mindset and believe if they're not first they're last. This is reinforced by streamers pushing homogenized meta builds to a lot of players that don't want to take the time to find alternatives that work for them. So they just wanna go fast and they opt to ride the meta. That's fine, their choice.

The solution isn't to make everything as cracked as the cracked options. And GGG has already experienced the blowback when they do massive nerfs mid-league. Not everything needs to be lightning spear to be perfectly viable and get you through all the content in the game. Oh no, a boss or a map will take you 20 more seconds to defeat! That really adds up!

0.3 has shown they're willing to buff skills. Find what you like and play it. But this notion that anything not meta is objectively bad is ridiculous to me.

Then again, I've been playing 1h+shield warrior (no ES) since 0.1 and have loved it despite the issues so I'm not exactly sane :P

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CyberData4#5867 wrote:

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Theocretus#9322 wrote:

What are you arguing here, exactly? No balance is needed? Most skills and classes are close to perfect as is, and most are near equals in power? Get a grip! If you enjoy arguing for fun or to feel some sense of importance/superiority, how about you go to school to become a lawyer.

Stop with the "What are you arguing" line. Then you insert a strawman that I think no balance is needed.

What I'm saying is that your premise that people play the meta because there are no viable alternatives is wrong. People play the meta because players have a min/max mindset and believe if they're not first they're last. This is reinforced by streamers pushing homogenized meta builds to a lot of players that don't want to take the time to find alternatives that work for them. So they just wanna go fast and they opt to ride the meta. That's fine, their choice.

The solution isn't to make everything as cracked as the cracked options. And GGG has already experienced the blowback when they do massive nerfs mid-league. Not everything needs to be lightning spear to be perfectly viable and get you through all the content in the game. Oh no, a boss or a map will take you 20 more seconds to defeat! That really adds up!

0.3 has shown they're willing to buff skills. Find what you like and play it. But this notion that anything not meta is objectively bad is ridiculous to me.

Then again, I've been playing 1h+shield warrior (no ES) since 0.1 and have loved it despite the issues so I'm not exactly sane :P

This right here a 1000%. Meta doesn't mean what these people on this forum think it does. I have yet, in my years of playing, played a single meta build. Literally 90% of the game is character building and exploring what works best for you.

If the people crying about build diversity actually stopped to think for more than 20 seconds they would realize it doesn't mean viable.

Its literally like saying 40% of people drive a Honda civic which means the only viable car you can drive is a honda civic.