The ONLY way to make melee feel good is by slowing everything down

I like the way melee monk plays now. Warrior needs to be tweaked for speed/ damage/synergy some but overall its getting there.
-I would like to see more blended (ES/Evasion/max resists) health node options for melee classes.
- Armor still isn’t a great option and needs to be reworked.

But other than those, I am enjoying both my melee classes and wouldnt want it slowed down.

I'll say it again : Physical Attacks should always inflict Daze , and Daze should be a debuff similar to Chill/Shock .

Physical damage always inflicts Daze. Daze slows all actions of the affected target up to 30% and make them deal 20% less damage ( 10% if the target is Unique ), based on the physical damage of the hit. The base duration is 2 seconds.

Then buff Armor & Life .

"

thorgrimn#0654 wrote:

I like the way melee monk plays now. Warrior needs to be tweaked for speed/ damage/synergy some but overall its getting there.
-I would like to see more blended (ES/Evasion/max resists) health node options for melee classes.
- Armor still isn’t a great option and needs to be reworked.

But other than those, I am enjoying both my melee classes and wouldnt want it slowed down.

when the speed of true melee/mace skills gets increased, all we get is zoom zoom poe1 playstyle.

we already know how this will play out because of poe1. if things get faster, ggg will introduce tougher bosses that have even more health. their attacks will be even more bullshit which could be super huge, and have very little time to react. all because the game is balanced around players being fast.

so the best thing players can do is instead of getting good, which would be difficult since the skill required is too high. players will need to overgear and only ever use highly optimized passive trees/builds.

the gap between casuals and "sweaters" will increase. build diversity suffers and in the end, we're back at poe1 game play where everyones just following a build and either deleting bosses or tanking everything the boss throws at them.

you might not realize it but this is what you will get if you want the game to be fast.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

"

TrunktenUK#3407 wrote:

"We don't want crafting to be deterministic" ye ok cool, let me just happily throw away countless amounts of boots that never came with the movement speed prefix or melee weapons without physical damage % prefix, I love your game GGG please continue to excite my senses...

crafting right now im poe2 is trash, for sure, but trust me they wont be happy with how it currently plays out either and over the next few years you will see so many new ways to craft stuff added to the game.

the way i see it, on a base level we need POE1 crafted mods to let players slap 1 mod that they want albeit a weaker version of what can roll.

that is all.

as for more than that, i am actually not keen for it. reason being, is this entire thread is based around player power.

if the game is slow, GGG would not need a reason to make bosses tougher or hit harder. if players are expected to not go above 50% movespeed, boss mechanics will be balanced around that fact. telegraphed attacks will have longer windups and aoes can be kept "not too big".

how does this tie into gear/crafting?

to me we are "meant" to try and get 2 mods and thats it. 3 if we're really lucky. all the rest are icing on the cake.

with deterministic crafting the issue will be ggg will be forced to balance the game around players having better gear.

i will agree that gear is pretty weak on base level tho.

personally i believe that good gear should be a bonus to player instead of the bare minimum requirement. thats how it is in poe1 where the bare minimum required to make certain builds work can feel so damn high.

sure, but this is the thing right, its the 3 month cycle.

its what i think a lot of the people who want better crafting and make a lot of noise about it arnt seeing.


chris used to talk about speed in poe1. he said a friend of his from diablo2 played poe very early and said it was too slow, that he liked the way in D2 deep in endgame you could go super fast. chris said he told him not to worry, that as the game evolved and was added to the speed would come, and when it came it would end up being too fast and they wouldnt be able to stop it.


thats kind of where crafting is going, and its inevitable.


they need to add something new every league and they have a formula. it has to have some new endgame content, some pin content, new uniques and a new way to craft or edit items. different player groups want these different things and they aim to have them all.


so its not even about whats good for the game. the crafting isnt enough? dont worry, more will be added, and more, and more and then you will think its enough, and then they will add more, and more and youll be pretty sure now its too much and the game is a hideous bloated abomination and it just keeps coming and coming and more and more...

it wont stop, theres a 3 month cycle and it will never stop adding and adding and when they dont add the league mechanic to core people will throw a hissy fit and when they nerf the new craft mechanic to make it ok to add people throw the dummy out the pram omg path of nerfs. they will be damned if they do and damned if they dont.


know what i mean? its why i say to people dont worry about it. game too slow for you? dont worry. crafting not powerful enough? dont worry. they know they will add power and crafting constantly after release and that it will get out of all sense and control. enjoy the moment where its not enough, because one day it will be too much and you will long for the days before it got there.

I think it's necessary to formalize the points of view. Formulate the problem (or problems) more clearly. Otherwise, it is not clear whether we are talking about one problem or several.

The correct state of affairs (in my opinion) is:
1. There are not many enemies, they do not create a mess on the screen, they allow you to use various tactics against them.
2. The speed of the game in any class is the same, but with different methods

The problem with case #1
is that there's a hell of a lot going on the screen in the late game. There are no tactics other than super-powerful damage to the maximum possible number of enemies cose of that mess.

Solution:
Reduce the number of enemies. This leads to a vacuum on the map. This requires reducing the size of the map, but it will result in the same density, meaning the problem will not be solved. Then it is necessary to expand the threat zone of the enemies. To do this, we increase the mobility of enemies / increase the range of damage inflicted by them. It will also require reviewing the drop
- A Difficult Big Job.

The problem with case #2:
The speed of the game varies significantly in terms of the speed of clearing for different classes (the same level and the same value).

Important note 1:
At any point in the game, for any class, you can find an opponent so low in difficulty that the speed will be very high compared to the desired one. Therefore, the criterion is the coincidence of speeds of different classes, and not their actual value. At the same time, the real value also matters.

Important note 2:
The speed of the warrior game is probably acceptable. And at the same time the lowest.

Solution:
Weaken long-range archetypes. At the same time, keep in mind that the speed of the sweep can be compared due to different approaches to damage avoidance, namely: the warrior is forced to kite more, since there are more threats around him, so the outgoing melee damage should be higher to compensate for this difference. Changing the degree of protection of archetypes is not required in this case.
- Not So Big Job.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

you cant rip off your own game.

the trading system is better than any other arpg that exists.

ggg essentially wrote the book on endgame in an arpg. endgame as we know it today in this genre didnt really exist until ggg created it. they dont have a lack of care for the endgame, they just havent fully developed it yet

This and your newer post which basically just spins a narrative of they'll keep bloating the game so you'll be satisfied and potentially sick from all the layers of goodness is really not any arguement towards why we can't have GGG working swiftly towards fixing their core/foundations.
EA should be any immediate resolution ground but they're almost treating it like a League saying stuff along the lines of "we won't rework some skills right now because it will force some players to rebuild so we will wait until economy reset", its almost high cringe to see devs overly care, even towards the no life addicts, but they need to do a job and no should care about being bathed in cotton wool when on the course of progression...

This gane is massively confused (POE2 Dark Souls lets go...ah space shooter End Game lets leave) and I can only rate the future negatively and you're not even understanding, you're not understanding why there's barely anyone rating End Game as any kind of great experience, not even from a potential standpoint because the Emd Game at a core level is just lacking and its SIMPLE purpose is just to satisfy a D2 addict at best instead of directing itself towards anyone who enjoyed progressing through the actual campaign!

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

sure, but this is the thing right, its the 3 month cycle.

its what i think a lot of the people who want better crafting and make a lot of noise about it arnt seeing.



know what i mean? its why i say to people dont worry about it. game too slow for you? dont worry. crafting not powerful enough? dont worry. they know they will add power and crafting constantly after release and that it will get out of all sense and control. enjoy the moment where its not enough, because one day it will be too much and you will long for the days before it got there.

actually thats the sad thing that i see about poe2.

i actually like the idea of going back to somewhere near d2 slowness. but d2 slowness is the antithesis of temp leagues.

when i started poe2, i played essentially SSF as i actively avoided trade until i was at t11 ish maps? its kind of a trip down nostalgia lane as i was picking up magic items, checking vendors.

it reminds me of how standard used to be, and it reminded me of how me and all my irl friends who played poe1 back then AVOIDED temp leagues. item acquisition was slow and thats the nature of diablo likes back then.

when talking to some of them even now. even myself. we really wonder at the end of EA would we jump into official release or just continue with EA characters/gear.

a lot of us are growing older and our time is getting limited.

i actually have pointed out a solution which can solve all this issues, which is LE's implementation of cycles. with cycles, players on standard will gain access to temp league mechanics without needing to jump into a new temp league. while purists who prefer a fresh economy can just play temp leagues.

in retrospect, one of the biggest mistakes GGG ever did was introduce harvest. harvest was the both the best and worst thing to happen. on one hand REGULAR players had a taste of how end game crafting was like. on another hand it raised players expectations.

Better timing, and a greater weight to each blow. It challenges players to think more strategically about their attacks, parries, and movement.:)

"

TrunktenUK#3407 wrote:

This and your newer post which basically just spins a narrative of they'll keep bloating the game so you'll be satisfied and potentially sick from all the layers of goodness is really not any arguement towards why we can't have GGG working swiftly towards fixing their core/foundations.

im not trying to use it as one. they need to fix the core and they are off working on the core trying to fix it. we dont need to make a case for them working on everything that happens after act 3 because we already know nothing that happens after act 3 is a finished system and theyre still working on finishing them asap.

"

TrunktenUK#3407 wrote:

EA should be any immediate resolution ground but they're almost treating it like a League saying stuff along the lines of "we won't rework some skills right now because it will force some players to rebuild so we will wait until economy reset", its almost high cringe to see devs overly care, even towards the no life addicts, but they need to do a job and no should care about being bathed in cotton wool when on the course of progression...

i would say theres 2 issues. one is that if you invite people in an instantly start nerfing everything theyre doing the vets will understand, the smart people will understand, most people wont and when a community turns and becomes megatoxic en mass it can be really bad for your game.




second they probably dont need the data. i dont think they really knew how endgame builds would function given the mechanics already in play when tested by over a million people and they needed to see that before they could judge what they were happy and unhappy with, where they wanted to pitch the power curve and where the cut off for power should be.

theyve probably seen enough now to know what is possible with the current mechanics and where they think its not correct. so they need to go do a massive rebalance and then test it on a fresh progression server to see how it interacts with the rebalanced items from lvl1 to 100. so why throw non essential nerfs onto the live servers? if it doesnt give them meaningful data to drip feed small changes into the server and it does piss people off by breaking their builds and causing them to demand free respecs etc which they dont want to normalise, why do it?

nothing to gain, a fair bit to lose, what is the point?


thats how i read the situation.

"

TrunktenUK#3407 wrote:

This gane is massively confused (POE2 Dark Souls lets go...ah space shooter End Game lets leave) and I can only rate the future negatively and you're not even understanding, you're not understanding why there's barely anyone rating End Game as any kind of great experience, not even from a potential standpoint because the Emd Game at a core level is just lacking and its SIMPLE purpose is just to satisfy a D2 addict at best instead of directing itself towards anyone who enjoyed progressing through the actual campaign!

i rate the core of the endgame system, the atlas is a fantastic idea. its like our old atlas meets delves mine, it has the most potential of any endgame system ive seen in an arpg.

but its just a sketch. they want proper quests within endgame to guide you through the mechanics and exploration, have narrative hooks. they want way more content, 3x as many maps, tons of unique maps, pinnacle bosses, interesting things to find. theyve said all this, theyre int he studio right now developing all this at the same time as acts 4-6 and the 6 other classes and the 24 other ascendancies and all the base items from act 4-endgame and all the uniques from act 4 onwards and the 60+ more bosses and twice as many skills and rebalancing all the existing mechanics and classes and skills and items already in the game.

theyre doing all that right now, its not gonna be finished tomorrow or next week or maybe even this year. they say they want a new reset to get the right data from the first massive balance patch, in order to make that worth while they want to add a significant amount of new content with it. when they have that done they will launch it.




we dont even have endgame uniques yet, its a loot hunt game, core parts of the motivation loop of playing endgame are not even in the game so why am i gonna lose my mind that endgame doesnt feel right yet? the only part of the game where the content, characters, items and gameplay is actually a fully designed first pass is acts 1-3 and theyre really good.

im giving critical feedback on what is here, but im not freaking out as if what we have is the finished game because its not even remotely close to the finished game. some of it isnt even the idea of what it will be, its a place holder, some of it doesnt even have a place holder its just completely missing.