GGG... here's the basic concept on how to make a game FUN... you're welcome!!!

"

bewilder2#0356 wrote:

PoE 2 imported all the problems PoE 1 had, but none of the solutions. All the "bads" are here but only few or almost none of the "goods". PoE 2 tries to be a whole different game than PoE 1, successfully did that only in act 1 to 3, but past that its just PoE 1 with upgraded graphics and dodge roll.

The most glaring issue in PoE 2 imo, is that GGG not yet understand the difference between punishing and hard / challenging content. For example, having only 1 ticket / 1 chance to a boss fight, while the process of getting that ticket is tedious and long, is punishing, not hard or challenging. In successful action game title like Elden Ring or even Monster Hunter, they made accessing a difficult / challenging bosses very easy and you can retry the fight again, again, and again, without adding layers of grind, until you beat it.

Pinnacle boss fight in PoE 2 is fundamentally flawed and does not incentivize players to learn the game and beat it by themselves. It incentivizes players to play just like PoE 1, instant melt the bosses within seconds, and the only challenging part in that aspect is gearing. There is a simple and quick fix for this ; Keep the default 6 "portals" and each allocated +1 difficulty node in atlas passive tree will reduce the numbers of tries by 1. So it starts with 6, then 5, 4, 3, and then 2.

Another major issue in PoE 2 is that the game have conflicting direction between more methodical combat approach and PoE 1 power fantasy designed around trading especially in endgame. There is no such thing as methodical combat approach in the endgame. The choice is either you play it like PoE 1 or you keep dying and get no loot, which means you won't be able to progress. The map design, the monster design, monster density, loot, breach, delirium, expedition, everything is just the same as PoE 1. People HATE content that have time-based mechanic in PoE 1 because it favors heavily zoomy-1 tap clear-no thinking needed-build. And I don't understand on why they keep a time-based mechanic in PoE 2, while not giving players movement skills, and worse, concentrated the loot in that mechanic (breach). How it is a more methodical combat approach with this time-based mechanic while having monster density like vampire survivor, and not to mention the numerous on death effects.

"

FireStorm1010#8675 wrote:

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

So, let's all agree that PoE2 is a chore... even for those of you that think the game is perfect, the game is still a series of chores... you go through the game, never being rewarded with any good loot to farm up money (currencies) to buy the items you need from others... that's the equivalent of HAVING A JOB!!! You work all month, get paid and then go buy groceries and food to sustain yourself and not die... THIS IS NOT HOW VIDEO GAMES SHOULD WORK!!!


1) The game is not difficult

Before people start saying "oh, but the game is difficult so it's skill issues"... no, it's not difficult... keeping the player's power level artificially at the lowest you can is not difficulty... because I can buy good items from others and blow up the bosses and one shot everything... it's ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY and it's aimed at low IQ people that don't understand the difference between a challenge and being a hamster on a wheel with a carrot on the other side of the cage...

2) Where FUN comes from

The concept of fun might be different from different people in specific situations but the base source where fun comes from in video games is ALWAYS the same for everyone... it comes from two sources...

a) Sense of Exploration

The sense of exploration is simple and almost all games have it except for the really really bad ones... you explore the game, you explore the mechanics, the world, the atmosphere... PoE2 doesn't suffer from this much... except the incredibly annoying dependency on the dodge roll and the some really bullshit mechanics like on death effects and swarming, the game is actually good on the exploration side of things.

b) Sense of Discovery/accomplishment

So here comes the part at which PoE2 is really bad at and PoE1 did mostly right and certainly way way WAAAAAY better than PoE2... So, what is sense of Discovery... it's the excitement that comes from finding out what you need for yourself to beat the game BY PLAYING THE GAME... in this game you CANNOT beat it by playing it... you will never find enough to sustain you on the ground and you always have to go back to the vendors and the online trading to get what you need...

Think about it this way, what's more exciting? to find the key to a car on the ground and the car itself next to it or to save up for years to by that car with your own money... CERTAINLY THE FIRST ONE!!! And guess what? The first one doesn't happen in real life... which is why it's exciting that it happens in video games... but when you take a video game and tell the players that "you have to save up and buy the things you need from trading" then you're essentially telling them to do what they do in real life working their everyday job...

And on the Accomplishment part... yes, beating a hard boss is rewarding... but it's rewarding BECAUSE OF THE REWARD OF BEATING IT!!! Doing a thousand pushups (Brooklyn 99 reference here) is rewarding ONLY of they give me something for it... if they give me a new car for doing 1000 pushups, then fuck yeah, it's exciting... but if I do a thousand pushups and then the guy tells me "good job, you can do them, you're a champ!" and give me 10 bucks and a pat on the back, then all I can think is... WHY THE FUCK DID I DO 1000 PUSHUPS YOU A-HOLE???


3) Giving power to the player

So, should you give the player more power to make the game easier for him and feel good about himself? Well, yes and no... No, you shouldn't just give him free stuff for doing nothing... but yes, you should 100% give him more power when he accomplishes something...

Everyone is raving about the boss fights of this game... but how many of you have ACTUALLY gotten 1% more powerful after beating the boss? Not by leveling up or buying stuff from elsewhere... DIRECTLY by beating the boss... almost nobody... and if the game had a ton of loot anyway like PoE1 that would be passable cause you'd eventually at least get what you need... but if the game is starving you for loot and then the "big challenges" don't give you anything specifically good then what's the point of the challenge? There's a reason dunks are worth 2 points and shots from 25+ft away are worth 3 points... those shots are harder to hit consistently and therefore are rewarded more...

So the final pilar of fun is this... GAINING power... not being gifted power... GAINING it... playing the game, accomplishing something and instantly becoming more powerful... PoE2 is GODAWFULLY BAD in this aspect... and no, finding exalted orbs to spend online for good items is NOT gaining power and it's NOT rewarding... it's just a transaction like me selling my old Thrustmaster racing wheel cause I bought a new Fanatec Direct Drive wheel... it's not exciting, it's just a transaction...


So, before all the armies of "git gud" and "skill issues" bots descend upon me, do one thing... dip your tongues in your brains and think about the aforementioned... think about the difference of having fun than being good at a job... thanks for reading!!!

You miss one key thing: for a virtual reward to be truly satisfying, for many poeple (like me) it must come for overcoming a challenge. Otherwise they could just give you all the loot at the start of the game, but it wouldnt be that fun would it? Everything in a video game is an illusion.

Im a casual player , playing warriors with a friend, only weekends.We dont read about meta builds, we dont buy stuff from market. We are only near end of act 2 , but we have good fun, becasue the game is challenging. The first act boss wasnt rewarding becasue it drop ton of loot, but becasue we died first 10 times to it, had to revise out equipement, discuss tactics and when we finally beat him, it felt good. Dont get me wrong, getting good loot is also fun, but its only a part fo it for me.

"

FireStorm1010#8675 wrote:

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Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

it's aimed at low IQ people that don't understand the difference between a challenge and being a hamster on a wheel with a carrot on the other side of the cage...

Im sorry to say if you play video games, you are more or less a hamster ona wheel with a carrot, specially in games where you progress and enemies gets stronger.

Yes its all about an illusion, i mean if you want real and productive, you can alwys learn somethign in that time, or do some charity work...

"

xxxkituxxx#0487 wrote:

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

So, let's all agree that PoE2 is a chore... even for those of you that think the game is perfect, the game is still a series of chores... you go through the game, never being rewarded with any good loot to farm up money (currencies) to buy the items you need from others... that's the equivalent of HAVING A JOB!!! You work all month, get paid and then go buy groceries and food to sustain yourself and not die... THIS IS NOT HOW VIDEO GAMES SHOULD WORK!!!

I agree on the point that a game should not feel like work, that being said Path of Exile 2 does not feel like work. If you think a GAME feels like work, you're actively playing it in a manner that is antithetical to the way the game is intended to be played, and you're doing it badly.

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

1) The game is not difficult

Before people start saying "oh, but the game is difficult so it's skill issues"... no, it's not difficult... keeping the player's power level artificially at the lowest you can is not difficulty... because I can buy good items from others and blow up the bosses and one shot everything... it's ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY and it's aimed at low IQ people that don't understand the difference between a challenge and being a hamster on a wheel with a carrot on the other side of the cage...

Keeping the players power level at any level is artificial from the foundational level. Keeping a players power level high is artificial because the developers have decided that's where they want it, keeping it at a middle ground is artifical because that's where the developers want it, keeping it low is artificial because that is where the developers want it. Your argument falters at its very start because you fail to grasp the fact that player power is moderated by the developers and therefore is always artificial. Putting that aside, keeping it low is the very definition of difficulty from Merriam-webster (the premire website for definitions and one of the most trusted sources for definitions): The quality or state of being hard to do, deal with, or understand: The quality or state of being difficult.

To say that keeping your power low is not difficulty is to fail to grasp the very basic and fundamental definition of the word. For instance: Giving a boss twice the amount of health it already has is a form of difficulty, you may not like it and may feel that it's a cheap way to make something feel more difficult, but it is, at its fundamental level, difficulty. A better way to phrase this would be to say that "I feel that keeping player power low is a cheap and lazy way of increasing difficulty", which would be an accurate statement and one I could get behind, however by stating that it is not difficulty you show your lack of knowledge and capability to understand basic concepts.

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

2) Where FUN comes from

The concept of fun might be different from different people in specific situations but the base source where fun comes from in video games is ALWAYS the same for everyone... it comes from two sources...

There is no 'might' when it comes to whether fun is different from person to person, at its very core the concept of fun is almost always different from person to person. Some people enjoy the same things, while someone else finds that exact same thing boring, repetitive, or both, thereby demonstrating you yet again fail to grasp a basic concept. Even the "base source" as you describe it changes from person to person. Some people love how hard and frustratingly difficult Fromsoft's boss designs are, others do not. Some people love Super Mario on the NES, others do not. Some people love Baldur's Gate 3, others do not.

the "base source" of fun differs from person to person because everyone finds different things more or less enjoyable than another person. Some enjoy fighting bosses, while others enjoy watching packs of mobs explode from a click of a button, while still others enjoy being able to sit back and let others kill things for them (whether that be through minions or friends), and still others prefer platformers and yet still others prefer platformers that don't have enemies at all, while still further some people enjoy games that have no enemies at all like Journey. What you find fun is not going to be the same as everyone else, if you aren't having fun with the game look instead at what you're doing in the game and see if that isn't why you're not having fun or if the game itself just doesn't call to you.

If the game itself does not call to you, if the game itself is not fun for you, then find another game to play instead of bitching about how YOU aren't having fun and how the entire game needs to change to cater to YOU.

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

a) Sense of Exploration

The sense of exploration is simple and almost all games have it except for the really really bad ones... you explore the game, you explore the mechanics, the world, the atmosphere... PoE2 doesn't suffer from this much... except the incredibly annoying dependency on the dodge roll and the some really bullshit mechanics like on death effects and swarming, the game is actually good on the exploration side of things.

This game is an ARPG, that stands for Action Role-playing Game. This is not a genre that's known for, or cares much about, exploration in and of itself. The game is about action, not exploration. If you want a game based around exploration, there are a plethora of titles out there dedicated to exactly that (look at literally any JRPG).

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

b) Sense of Discovery/accomplishment

So here comes the part at which PoE2 is really bad at and PoE1 did mostly right and certainly way way WAAAAAY better than PoE2... So, what is sense of Discovery... it's the excitement that comes from finding out what you need for yourself to beat the game BY PLAYING THE GAME... in this game you CANNOT beat it by playing it... you will never find enough to sustain you on the ground and you always have to go back to the vendors and the online trading to get what you need...

When it comes to 'discovery' you're clearly looking to discover things via exploration, that much is obvious within the first 2 sentences of these 3 paragraphs. As mentioned before, this game is NOT about exploration in the sense you're wanting, this game is about build exploration. If you want to discover builds, then just simply do not look up guides it really isn't that hard. The game actually does a phenomenal job of telling the player how everything works in game, significantly moreso than Path of Exile 1 which tells you almost nothing. Because of this, in your first paragraph alone you have demonstrated the lack of any capability to distinguish between what something does and doesn't do.

You say you "can't beat it by playing it", but that is just blatantly false information. I played through this game on several characters without ever looking up any guides and still haven't to this day. I've beaten every campaign boss without help and learned every single move they use and how to avoid them on my own. So this is, again, blatantly false information. You absolutely CAN beat this game by playing it. You also say you HAVE to go back to the vendors and can never find enough 'sustain' on the ground, and this is again blatantly false information. I have rarely used vendors and have not had any issues since I actually trade with players and not NPCs. Also, shocker in a Multiplayer game, you have to ACTUALLY interact with other players, Who'd of though. If you want to not engage with that, either just don't do it or simply play Solo Self Found.

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

Think about it this way, what's more exciting? to find the key to a car on the ground and the car itself next to it or to save up for years to by that car with your own money... CERTAINLY THE FIRST ONE!!! And guess what? The first one doesn't happen in real life... which is why it's exciting that it happens in video games... but when you take a video game and tell the players that "you have to save up and buy the things you need from trading" then you're essentially telling them to do what they do in real life working their everyday job...

Your next paragraph is just.... fucking awful dude. From its very start you give a terrible fucking example; finding keys to a car on the ground would not be exciting, for if you just take them and make no attempt at returning them not only are you actually committing theft, but it would be a felony level theft. You also deprive the person who rightfully owns that car the ability to use it, so from the outset your example is fucking terrible.

Putting aside your terrible example; How is needing to play the game and interact with other players equal to a job? Have you ever had an actual blue collar job in your life? Because I've had multiple, and no game I have ever played in 30+ years has ever come anywhere close to feeling like a job. Even the most grind-intensive games don't feel like a job, they feel like a chore or laborious but not a fucking JOB. If you don't want to interact with other people, go play either SSF or a single-player game. Path of Exile, both 1 and 2, are multiplayer games, and asking players in these multiplayer games to interact with other players isn't "essentially telling them to do what they do in real life working their everyday job..."

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

And on the Accomplishment part... yes, beating a hard boss is rewarding... but it's rewarding BECAUSE OF THE REWARD OF BEATING IT!!! Doing a thousand pushups (Brooklyn 99 reference here) is rewarding ONLY of they give me something for it... if they give me a new car for doing 1000 pushups, then fuck yeah, it's exciting... but if I do a thousand pushups and then the guy tells me "good job, you can do them, you're a champ!" and give me 10 bucks and a pat on the back, then all I can think is... WHY THE FUCK DID I DO 1000 PUSHUPS YOU A-HOLE???

Where do I even begin here? Your examples continue to be the worst thing in existence. Doing a thousand pushups on its own is the reward, if you don't think that, that is because you've never done a thousand pushups. A thousand pushups is more difficult to do than literally fighting every single boss in this game at the exact same time. You do the pushups because it makes you physically stronger, makes your body healthier, and gives you an adrenaline rush you'll only understand if you've actually gone and worked out once in your entire life.

3) Giving power to the player

"

Blade_Dancer_90#3602 wrote:

So, should you give the player more power to make the game easier for him and feel good about himself? Well, yes and no... No, you shouldn't just give him free stuff for doing nothing... but yes, you should 100% give him more power when he accomplishes something...

Everyone is raving about the boss fights of this game... but how many of you have ACTUALLY gotten 1% more powerful after beating the boss? Not by leveling up or buying stuff from elsewhere... DIRECTLY by beating the boss... almost nobody... and if the game had a ton of loot anyway like PoE1 that would be passable cause you'd eventually at least get what you need... but if the game is starving you for loot and then the "big challenges" don't give you anything specifically good then what's the point of the challenge? There's a reason dunks are worth 2 points and shots from 25+ft away are worth 3 points... those shots are harder to hit consistently and therefore are rewarded more...

So the final pilar of fun is this... GAINING power... not being gifted power... GAINING it... playing the game, accomplishing something and instantly becoming more powerful... PoE2 is GODAWFULLY BAD in this aspect... and no, finding exalted orbs to spend online for good items is NOT gaining power and it's NOT rewarding... it's just a transaction like me selling my old Thrustmaster racing wheel cause I bought a new Fanatec Direct Drive wheel... it's not exciting, it's just a transaction...


So, before all the armies of "git gud" and "skill issues" bots descend upon me, do one thing... dip your tongues in your brains and think about the aforementioned... think about the difference of having fun than being good at a job... thanks for reading!!!

I'm not reading the rest of this because you have no idea what the fuck you're even talking about. If you don't think players have power, let me link you just the first 7 videos that popped up when you search "Path of exile 2 one shot build" into youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhSuW3_jlVk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftWumGZYTjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsESbCP_oAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjyNAOXmZbU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTUptU8tvys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ8qhGhfl00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZqakkH8Rl4

"

Bacon_Overlord#1834 wrote:

Why is it always the folks that haven't been around long or supported the game that don't want it to change for the better?