An open letter to everyone participating in EA - Feedback Etiquette!

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MLGonthorian#4568 wrote:

Does it ever occur to you that people are complaining for a reason? You want people to tip toe around to spare others' feelings? If you want players to just talk positively or not complain about all the issues then not much is going to get done and it will be looked at as a non-issue. How can anyone hear you if you don't ever say anything?

Here's my feedback, the game is not fun to me. It's slow, boring and lacks too much of what made PoE 1 good.

It's not about feelings or pure positivity or plain complaints and you know that. You can give negative feedback. Nobody is telling you that you can't.

However, when threads end up hostile with people calling each other names, when people actively post misinformation to make it seem worse than it is, when a single person has 500+ posts since release and posts on every single positive thread to change the narrative because they don't get their way, THAT's the issue.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

[...]

You completely missed or ignored my point.

Yes, PoE1 is "supposed" to blabla. At the moment it's not. That's why saying "go back to it" is just talking like an ass.
I'm not saying PoE1 or PoE2 is right over the other. But if PoE1 enjoyer cannot say "PoE2 is trash" (which he souldn't), then PoE2 enjoyer cannot say "go back to PoE1" either (which he shouldn't either).

I never said PoE2 won't nor shouldn't change in a timely manner. I offered you a thought experiment to put you in perspective. But you straight up ignored it and jumped back on your comfy bias. I never gave my opinion over ppl feedback (both directions), I specifically quoted "go back to PoE1".

In the end, it's funny, I knew I already saw your name. We're back to the same point I made to you on another post :

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GGG listen, so they implemented it.
GGG don't listen, or they would have implemented it.

Those 2 sentences suffer the same confirmation bias. They are basically the same statement, one being the negative of the other. 1st one is from the guy you critique. 2nd one is yours. In the end, same shit.

You see the mote in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye.

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MLGonthorian#4568 wrote:

Does it ever occur to you that people are complaining for a reason?

Like I mentioned above, the term "people" is over-estimated here. Only a small portion of the playerbase is actually participating in the forum and most often it's those who are unhappy that invest time/energy to come here and complain. Which is okay, because GGG also needs the nagtive feedback from players. But some others use a form of language which is a breach of Code of Conduct. That's why multiple threads had to been closed already and I think GGG is very generous with some other threads here, because they are very VERY close of breach of Code of Cunduct as well.

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MLGonthorian#4568 wrote:

You want people to tip toe around to spare others' feelings? If you want players to just talk positively or not complain about all the issues then not much is going to get done and it will be looked at as a non-issue. How can anyone hear you if you don't ever say anything?

I'm not sure if you've read my post at all. I'm not saying that people should just talk positively about the game. I would just like to see less agressiveness and namecalling. I see many thread completely derailing from the op, because either the op wrote way to provocative or other reacted to strong on op. And this never helps to confront underlying problems with the game itself.

I think nearly no one is saying that PoE2 is perfect in it's current state, but some chosen words are just completely missplaced and should never occur in a discussion at all.

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MLGonthorian#4568 wrote:

Here's my feedback, the game is not fun to me. It's slow, boring and lacks too much of what made PoE 1 good.

And THIS is absolutely okay. No name calling, no agressiveness, no provocation and it's clear that this is YOUR experience.

See what I mean? People can be negative about the game without being aggressive / hurtful / provocative.

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

Yes, PoE1 is "supposed" to blabla. At the moment it's not. That's why saying "go back to it" is just talking like an ass.
I'm not saying PoE1 or PoE2 is right over the other. But if PoE1 enjoyer cannot say "PoE2 is trash" (which he souldn't), then PoE2 enjoyer cannot say "go back to PoE1" either (which he shouldn't either).

Well, I think context matters here. "PoE2 is trash" is, in every context, just plain provocative and very aggressive. But saying "Go back to PoE1" can either be provocative, or a suggestion. I didn't even say "Go back to PoE1", I said "Why not go to the game you find superior in any way (PoE1)?". It was a question and it was for someone who clearly said, that he doesn't like anything about PoE2 at all. If someone hates this game so much that it fills the person with "disgust", I just wonder why this person isn't just playing the game he loves. Because PoE2, even with all the future changes, will not be PoE1 and that's something GGG very clearly said.

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

I never said PoE2 won't nor shouldn't change in a timely manner. I offered you a thought experiment to put you in perspective. But you straight up ignored it and jumped back on your comfy bias. I never gave my opinion over ppl feedback (both directions), I specifically quoted "go back to PoE1".

Well, but you didn't really quote me, as seen above. Also I don't understand your thought experiment. A thought experiment is only good, if it actually could happen. Like "Imagine you don't learn this right now. How will your future look then?". From thiss thought experiment, you could extract the idea, that you may have less chances in the future, if you don't learn something today. But what can I learn from your thought experiment? I never demanded that people can't be negative about the game anymore and the game will definitely change. So If you could give me a good explanation of your thought experiment and I understand your reasoning, I give it another chance.

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

In the end, it's funny, I knew I already saw your name. We're back to the same point I made to you on another post :

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GGG listen, so they implemented it.
GGG don't listen, or they would have implemented it.

Those 2 sentences suffer the same confirmation bias. They are basically the same statement, one being the negative of the other. 1st one is from the guy you critique. 2nd one is yours. In the end, same shit.

You see the mote in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye.

I think the discussion we had in the other thread has a different context then the one we have here. I never said that people shouldn't be negative about the game. I even encourage people to give feedback. Though, my suggestion is to be more constructive and less provocative/agressive about it. So yes, let GGG know about your dissatisfaction, but do it in a proper manner. In real life, with no anonymity, people would never talk to someone from GGG in the same way as they do here. And I believe we can be better then this.

99% of the conflict is the complete lack of GGG stating the intent of the game, and direction they want it to go.
Both in pacing, in endgame, in difficulty, and in reward systems.

Currently it's a mess.

To spice it all up, the internet is well know to cater to misery. And nothing breathes misery like displeased gamers that can't get their vision appeased, or worse; players that are happy and terrified someone will take it away from them.

All of this would be resolved with GGG doing a post or interview stating what sort of game then want in the outcome.
And what players they want to cater too, because you cant please all of us unless they release a very modal approach with multiple game modes and difficulties.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

From my perspective, these threads that have like over 20 pages are a result of people trying to "fight" the players that just want to rant. And as soon as you try to confront them, you give them room to rant more.

In my early days, there was a saying: Don't feed the troll. And I think that happens here quite too often, haha.

Forums used to be moderated properly (or some were), you get great feedback on a well maintained forum.

But nobody wants to pay for that so we end up with the wild west like here, or upvote over on reddit which is an echo chamber mostly but occasionally highlights really good content.

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eldheim#2436 wrote:

99% of the conflict is the complete lack of GGG stating the intent of the game, and direction they want it to go.
Both in pacing, in endgame, in difficulty, and in reward systems.

Currently it's a mess.

To spice it all up, the internet is well know to cater to misery. And nothing breathes misery like displeased gamers that can't get their vision appeased, or worse; players that are happy and terrified someone will take it away from them.

All of this would be resolved with GGG doing a post or interview stating what sort of game then want in the outcome.
And what players they want to cater too, because you cant please all of us unless they release a very modal approach with multiple game modes and difficulties.

I agree, that a clear vision from GGG would certainly help to give feedback here more direction. But that doesn't make it right to just lash out at other players or at GGG.

TLDR: Please write more concise

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eldheim#2436 wrote:

99% of the conflict is the complete lack of GGG stating the intent of the game, and direction they want it to go.
Both in pacing, in endgame, in difficulty, and in reward systems.

Currently it's a mess.

To spice it all up, the internet is well know to cater to misery. And nothing breathes misery like displeased gamers that can't get their vision appeased, or worse; players that are happy and terrified someone will take it away from them.

All of this would be resolved with GGG doing a post or interview stating what sort of game then want in the outcome.
And what players they want to cater too, because you cant please all of us unless they release a very modal approach with multiple game modes and difficulties.

Ho the game intention is extremely CLEAR. The game is designed to be playable and completable in SOLO SELF FOUND + HARCORE.

Any other game modes (HC, SSF, Softcore) are made easier to catter to the people that can't handle this kind of difficulty and have to rely on group plays, trading, or making mistakes over and over, while still enjoying the game's challenges and universe.

That's it.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Well, I think context matters here. "PoE2 is trash" is, in every context, just plain provocative and very aggressive. But saying "Go back to PoE1" can either be provocative, or a suggestion. I didn't even say "Go back to PoE1", I said "Why not go to the game you find superior in any way (PoE1)?". It was a question and it was for someone who clearly said, that he doesn't like anything about PoE2 at all. If someone hates this game so much that it fills the person with "disgust", I just wonder why this person isn't just playing the game he loves. Because PoE2, even with all the future changes, will not be PoE1 and that's something GGG very clearly said.

Doesn't matter your intent, even a supposedly genuine "question", saying to someone venting :
Why not going back to D4 ? Why not going back to elden ring ? Why not going back to PoE1 ?
Makes you either :
1) Passive aggressive, you alrdy know why they don't.
2) Pure ignorance (innocence ?), but then why are you even bringing something that you have no clue about, straight up ass talking. Talk about PoE2 and leave 1 out of the topic.
Both ways end up aggressive nonetheless (And where we are back to previous topic, you blame someone for being aggressive, being aggressive yourself).
Does that justify OP's tone ? Definitely not. Doesn't make yours right though.

Also you are right, context matters. That's why it's fine when any OP comes and vent on the forum with his own post full of emotions. You can read and agree, or disagree and leave it as it is : venting.
Now, when you (I mean anyone, not necessarily AceNightfire here) come and comment that post, you better keep your own opposite emotional response out.
On the principle that it's ok to do mistakes, but if you wanna judge others mistakes, you better not do it yourself first (cf previous topic).

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

Well, but you didn't really quote me, as seen above. Also I don't understand your thought experiment. A thought experiment is only good, if it actually could happen.

I clearly quoted you on my first response ;)
Say what about thought experiment ???
A thought experiment is a hypothetical situation in which a hypothesis, theory, or principle is laid out for the purpose of thinking through its consequences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment#See_also
Also, even if I let this slip. What I said could happen. GGG could very well decide they got enough data, and don't want to publish future changes, keeping the hype for the launch.
So basically you dismissed my thought experiment because the "hypothesis" is unlikely according to your own bias (back again to previous topic).

The experiment again for you :
- Hypothesis : we won't have any change in PoE2 EA, before the actual release of the full game, 6 or more months later.
- Consequences thoughts : I cannot imagine having so much ppl playing PoE2 in that state in 6 months.

Conclusion : Regardless how ppl like PoE2 or not, without changes, ppl wouldn't be eager to play after 6 months in the same state. So advising ppl to go back to PoE1 is just dumb and or ignorant at this very point in time.

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AceNightfire#0980 wrote:

I never said that people shouldn't be negative about the game. I even encourage people to give feedback. Though, my suggestion is to be more constructive and less provocative/agressive about it. So yes, let GGG know about your dissatisfaction, but do it in a proper manner. In real life, with no anonymity, people would never talk to someone from GGG in the same way as they do here. And I believe we can be better then this.

All of that said, I agree with you. That's why I specifically quoted the PoE1 thing. You're not answering any of my points with that part.
I also took the time to quote/reply to you, because you make big sense accross your posts, so I have a chance getting my point accross, instead of trying to reason trolls. But there are little things you should try to avoid (you and others, obviously).
And bringing PoE1 in the discussion is one of them, for the reasons I told about above and before.