GGG - Stand true to what you said about player feedback

"

Kaboinglefop#0955 wrote:

Focus on problems, not suggestions.

Then remember that some problems are non issues.

When Diablo 2 came out before hell mode was solved, if the developers listened to what people would have said we would not have a game still having lobbies immediately fill up weeks into ladder reset 20 years later. It seemed impossible, it seemed like the developers released a troll game mode that was never meant to be beat. It was solved.

You said 100 on ruthless PoE1 would not be reached, we reached it last league.

When PoE came out, you guys had the right idea. Starting perandus/prophecy, league after league after league you kept giving too much power and speed creep by addressing the problem of "we feel weak" in the wrong way.

Stand true to your vision, there is a happy middle ground here (such as tutorials on how to get resistances, and tweaks to positioning/nodes on the tree)

This game may seem hard, but it absolutely gives you the tools you need to succeed. People want to skip the campaign, the campaign is bloody brilliant, the ascendancy trials are brilliant, nothing but glowing feedback across my guild (who is nothing but D2 and PoE vets having zero issues with the game that are non-technical like crashes, all level 85+ or in maps/waystones).

We are all long time supporters and believe you have a chance to make a game that targets us hardcore ARPG players without needing to make a Ruthless GSF like you did for PoE1.

PoE1 has the extreme zoom power fantasy skip-the-campaign style game. Nerfing Malachai on release made me really upset, I don't even wear my Awakening shirt anymore.

The new ascendancies are very well done, only small rebalances needed on some underwhelming ones and nerfs to overperforming ones. Again, player power being earned is extremely gratifying. Some are a small adjustment from feeling good.

Keep the combat engaging and challenging, and add small rebalances to skills/trees.

One of the things my guild is most worried about is the extreme fun we had reaching the limited endgame will be lost after waves of buffs and power creep like PoE1. Campaign is a rite of passage, and it's earned not given. It was this way in D2, it used to be this way in PoE1, and it is the way to keep us ARPG players engaged PoE2. Frankly, if the game released in its current state, we would still play it over anything else.

You made a fantastic campaign and game, stay true to the vision. There are many players who aren't making forum posts and instead actually playing the game.

PoE2 is amazing. Many of our guild mates who are far in the game are loving it. This is a good middle ground between what Ruthless wanted to be and a true ARPG. Please don't gut and kill PoE2 to cater to the base you are ALREADY pleasing with PoE1, that you alienated for 5-6 years of powercreep.

It would be an absolute shame for you to double back on your wise decision to make a different game then just make it a reskinned PoE1. I have already clocked in 300 hours on PoE2 -- keep it slow and deliberate, adjust the endgame zoom.

Signed, guild and social circle of longtime lifetime supporters of PoE, D2, and other awesome ARPGs.

I feel like this is the only person GGG listens to. Which would be fine, except they kind of told people they were trying to expand. I don't mind GGG serving any particular group of gamer, just don't pretend like you're trying to serve someone else.

Also, it absolutely is not a happy middle by any stretch. I put literally a full-time job's worth of time into this thing, and I still felt weak. That is not casual. If I'm feeling weak after all that time, it's either bad game design or design for a niche base.

Make whatever you want to make, just don't pretend like it's accessible.

"

SkyPrince30#4110 wrote:

"

Kaboinglefop#0955 wrote:

Focus on problems, not suggestions.

Then remember that some problems are non issues.

When Diablo 2 came out before hell mode was solved, if the developers listened to what people would have said we would not have a game still having lobbies immediately fill up weeks into ladder reset 20 years later. It seemed impossible, it seemed like the developers released a troll game mode that was never meant to be beat. It was solved.

You said 100 on ruthless PoE1 would not be reached, we reached it last league.

When PoE came out, you guys had the right idea. Starting perandus/prophecy, league after league after league you kept giving too much power and speed creep by addressing the problem of "we feel weak" in the wrong way.

Stand true to your vision, there is a happy middle ground here (such as tutorials on how to get resistances, and tweaks to positioning/nodes on the tree)

This game may seem hard, but it absolutely gives you the tools you need to succeed. People want to skip the campaign, the campaign is bloody brilliant, the ascendancy trials are brilliant, nothing but glowing feedback across my guild (who is nothing but D2 and PoE vets having zero issues with the game that are non-technical like crashes, all level 85+ or in maps/waystones).

We are all long time supporters and believe you have a chance to make a game that targets us hardcore ARPG players without needing to make a Ruthless GSF like you did for PoE1.

PoE1 has the extreme zoom power fantasy skip-the-campaign style game. Nerfing Malachai on release made me really upset, I don't even wear my Awakening shirt anymore.

The new ascendancies are very well done, only small rebalances needed on some underwhelming ones and nerfs to overperforming ones. Again, player power being earned is extremely gratifying. Some are a small adjustment from feeling good.

Keep the combat engaging and challenging, and add small rebalances to skills/trees.

One of the things my guild is most worried about is the extreme fun we had reaching the limited endgame will be lost after waves of buffs and power creep like PoE1. Campaign is a rite of passage, and it's earned not given. It was this way in D2, it used to be this way in PoE1, and it is the way to keep us ARPG players engaged PoE2. Frankly, if the game released in its current state, we would still play it over anything else.

You made a fantastic campaign and game, stay true to the vision. There are many players who aren't making forum posts and instead actually playing the game.

PoE2 is amazing. Many of our guild mates who are far in the game are loving it. This is a good middle ground between what Ruthless wanted to be and a true ARPG. Please don't gut and kill PoE2 to cater to the base you are ALREADY pleasing with PoE1, that you alienated for 5-6 years of powercreep.

It would be an absolute shame for you to double back on your wise decision to make a different game then just make it a reskinned PoE1. I have already clocked in 300 hours on PoE2 -- keep it slow and deliberate, adjust the endgame zoom.

Signed, guild and social circle of longtime lifetime supporters of PoE, D2, and other awesome ARPGs.

I feel like this is the only person GGG listens to. Which would be fine, except they kind of told people they were trying to expand. I don't mind GGG serving any particular group of gamer, just don't pretend like you're trying to serve someone else.

Also, it absolutely is not a happy middle by any stretch. I put literally a full-time job's worth of time into this thing, and I still felt weak. That is not casual. If I'm feeling weak after all that time, it's either bad game design or design for a niche base.

Make whatever you want to make, just don't pretend like it's accessible.

I put comparatively little effort in and feel strong. I guess I was just much more efficient and/or lucky. The game still sucks. Don’t worry, being strong is more boring than being weak in this game because the endgame offers nothing of entertainment value.

"

Kaboinglefop#0955 wrote:

"

spardaknightz#4852 wrote:

Man o man your lvl 60? You finished the tutorial. Let us know if your opinion changes on your 3rd and 4th ascension trials, but at your current rate the season will be over before you fight you find your first citadel and get the pleasure of dieing on it only to find out you get 1 try. If they want the same campaign pace the entire endgame loot, drop rate and mechanics will all need to be massively rebalance. Im not against it. But if it is going to be slower we need the items that drop to be rare and actually have good stats. Right now 99% of the item's that drop are all trash and any upgrade for me costs several divine and im just talking about non uniques like rares with 4 decently rolled high stats. The trials are also not tuned in a way that makes you feel like you strategized and overcame some big obstacle's. They all feel like the biggest determining factor is luck and then later it is based off killing everything before it touches you.

You didn't even read the post.
I am endgame 350+ hours now. Fully ascended. I did 4th ascension solo on an earthshatter titan and on all my other chars. It's fine.

Did you even bother checking my profile

Maybe you should ascend to touching grass. An adult playing video games 12h a day is deeply unwell.

Have you and your guild even played the endgame?!?!

Its already as zoomey with screenwide explosions as PoE1, just minus the movement speed and the movement skills.
I am all for a more challenging experience! I also dont want this game to be like PoE1 even though i love PoE1. But its already there, i dont need a second PoE1.
I am all for PoE2 being its own thing, slower, more methodical and more with more challenging encounter design.

But right now, thats not what this game is and it is very, very far from that vision.
Act 1 - 3 mostly are that way, but that is us without having figured out builds like we did in PoE1.
And the player is severely limited in skills, auras etc due to being low level. It is way easier to design adequately challenging contend for that level range!

This game will have to undergo massive changes if it is supposed to keep the pace of the first 3 acts of the campaign.
Not sure if they have the strenght to pull that of, given how the game is right now.

"

Valsacar#0268 wrote:

We already have two difficulty modes. POE1 and POE2.

Come on now. Be honest. There's no reason you need to start off a conversation like this. They're not two difficulties, they're two entirely different games. And PoE 2, given a few months, will probably steer direction away from PoE 1 quite a bit. My question is still valid.

"

Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Games don't need to appeal to the most players they can

You're right. They don't. You can totally make a niche game that has a very small audience. PoE 1 was that game. It had very low player retention because the game required huge amounts of knowledge, time investment, and ability to withstand frustrating game mechanics. Like interacting with trade.

PoE 2 doesn't need to be like that, does it? Do they need to make two games, for 100k regular players? Seems like a waste of money. Do you know how much went into POE 2? Almost 6 years of development time so far. That's quite a bit of cash.

"

Valsacar#0268 wrote:

that's how we get flooded with absolute shit boring games.

Hmm.. Do you really believe this? Or are you just saying it so your argument feels better to you?

There are plenty of examples of games that completely contradict this point. Both being accessible, fun, and enjoyable for a wide range of player types.

Elden Ring for instance. Very popular. Difficult. Super fun. Not overly frustrating. Appeals to casuals and tryhards alike.

Other examples include, League of Legends, DotA 2, Apex Legends, Fortnite, Rainbow Six Siege. All allow for high skill expression, but are very accessible to your average player in various ways. There's also more, when you look back in time. Those are just popular right now.

"

Valsacar#0268 wrote:

Games need to appeal to the target audience they were designed to be for, and if that isn't you or me then that's what it is.

Well. You can design a very specific game for specific audiences yes. But that tends to be a money sink. Look at all the MMO's that have tried to capture audiences over the years. They keep making them, and making them the same, with little to no innovation and they all flop. This tends to be a huge risk for a company.

GGG would be taking a risk making two similar games for their target audience. It spreads them between two games, increases costs across the board. And it doesn't have a good return. Do we really need two super grindy, largely single player games, with lots of technicals and numbers, and mechanics? And you're going to split ~ 100k players between the two games? And spend what, a hundred million on the second game for that?

PoE 1 is a very niche game. Very few play it long term, and even fewer actually play it at the end-game for any significant period of time. PoE 2 is an attempt at making the POE universe, more accessible to more players. Infact, that's why they separated the games. They were changing too much.


Don't get me wrong. Casual games can still be decently challenging. And an easy way to let PoE 2 exist, with even harder difficulties, is to offer an easier one for those that don't want to play it. Games have been doing this for years. Some people like a challenge, they pick EXTRA HARD difficulty, some people want a bit of a challenge, they pick MEDIUM difficulty, and some people just want to chillax with a game for 2 hours in the evening before bed, and watch shit explode, and they pick easy difficulty.

Why is this not a viable solution to PoE 2 being more accessible? Much easier than trying to make the game appeal to everyone on one difficulty.

Why do we need to fight over 'skills' in a video game, when the end goal is to just have fun in them? You have fun, I have fun. We both win.

"

Have you and your guild even played the endgame?!?!

Its already as zoomey with screenwide explosions as PoE1, just minus the movement speed and the movement skills.
I am all for a more challenging experience! I also dont want this game to be like PoE1 even though i love PoE1. But its already there, i dont need a second PoE1.
I am all for PoE2 being its own thing, slower, more methodical and more with more challenging encounter design.

But right now, thats not what this game is and it is very, very far from that vision.
Act 1 - 3 mostly are that way, but that is us without having figured out builds like we did in PoE1.
And the player is severely limited in skills, auras etc due to being low level. It is way easier to design adequately challenging contend for that level range!

This game will have to undergo massive changes if it is supposed to keep the pace of the first 3 acts of the campaign.
Not sure if they have the strenght to pull that of, given how the game is right now.

+10

-)

+1 OP

"

Absolutely agree with you. To the GGG feedback collectors -- Me and my guild are your target audience from D2 that you lost with PoE1.

Joining in =)

"

way2stupid#9491 wrote:

Have you and your guild even played the endgame?!?!

Its already as zoomey with screenwide explosions as PoE1, just minus the movement speed and the movement skills.
I am all for a more challenging experience! I also dont want this game to be like PoE1 even though i love PoE1. But its already there, i dont need a second PoE1.
I am all for PoE2 being its own thing, slower, more methodical and more with more challenging encounter design.

But right now, thats not what this game is and it is very, very far from that vision.
Act 1 - 3 mostly are that way, but that is us without having figured out builds like we did in PoE1.
And the player is severely limited in skills, auras etc due to being low level. It is way easier to design adequately challenging contend for that level range!

This game will have to undergo massive changes if it is supposed to keep the pace of the first 3 acts of the campaign.
Not sure if they have the strenght to pull that of, given how the game is right now.

Yes, we have played the endgame, I comment on the zoom in OP.

It is actually amazing how few people have mentioned what build they are playing when arguing about contrasting views on how the game plays.