6000 hours of Melee Scientific Expert Tells You the Truth- Melee changes ACTUALLY 100% suck

ive factored the multistrike in (thus it is BOLDED)

you can replace multistrike (150% cost) with any other 140% cost gem and land with almost the same situation (50 instead of 56 mana per click). the attack speed does not help with leech, you saturate way below required level anyway.


my old DS of ambidexterity has 300(!) mana/second drain according to new POB. it is actually lower than some of my casters :) crazy days

WOOOOOO look at that lacerate build. TankAF

Also has a slam swap available for faster mapping? Wow


So much for "Melee changes ACTUALLY 100% suck".

Lets go!!!!

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

You and I are not Ben - why would I know what Ben thinks? Make an argument (:

You linked what I assume is Ben playing

Not in my opinion as a melee main and not according to any reputable or accomplished POE streamer who's opinions I give a shit about.

That is not Ben playing, it is me.

Your opinion is Ben's opinion, which you don't understand, as you're unable to elaborate it beyond "he is glowing".

its called summarizing.

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sidtherat wrote:

ive factored the multistrike in (thus it is BOLDED)

you can replace multistrike (150% cost) with any other 140% cost gem and land with almost the same situation (50 instead of 56 mana per click). the attack speed does not help with leech, you saturate way below required level anyway.


my old DS of ambidexterity has 300(!) mana/second drain according to new POB. it is actually lower than some of my casters :) crazy days

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sidtherat wrote:

new total cost 56 mana per click

it doesnt take much investment to get that to 3aps (pre-multistrike) - the build ive checked was closer to 5aps (~260 mana/sec - it is caster territory now ffs)

No... doesn't look like you did.

If it costs 56 per click and you have 5 aps, the two repeats are costless, with brings it to about 102 mana per second. You simply multiplied 56 x 5 = getting your 260 mana/ sec and forgot the most basic thing about Multistrike: Repeats don't cost mana.

But hey, i know it's embarrassing to be proven wrong, so let's do the PoB math.

Here's a 57 mana cost, Awakened Multistrike with almsot 7 aps. Still not even 100 mana cost per second.

Here's what it would actually take to get to 260 mana/sec.

Feel free to revise your calculations whenever.

i havent seen your pob. used one from ninja. that one had 5 aps BEFORE you factor repeats (rage stacker, ancestral protector, 12 frenzies and very, very fast axe)

the math checks out. if you think youll be fine - sure, you do you. im pretty sure you wont be but hey, you benefit if im wrong

and the cost i list here is 'base' cost - before any reductions.

something must be up when most streamers go straight to Blood Magic keystone so far.. kinda weird strategy given how powerful auras are. maybe.. maybe they know there is a slight problem with mana sustain? i wonder..

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sidtherat wrote:

i havent seen your pob. used one from ninja. that one had 5 aps BEFORE you factor repeats (rage stacker, ancestral protector, 12 frenzies and very, very fast axe)

Then that wasn't 5 aps. Attack rate counts all repeats within it. To get 5 attacks to count towards the mana count it would need to be this(with Awakened Multistrike):

Regardless, if the upfront cost is 55, you would need almost 19aps to get 255 mana cost per second.

If you have this much aps, mana cost should justifiably be a problem that 10 nodes as some are suggesting be a more than fair balancing point.

Multistrike acts as a mana reduction, assuming all else is equal. Adron and PoB is correct, thank you for the correction.

A 57 cost skill, 7 aps, using multistrike will always cost LESS mana than the same 57 cost skill, 7 aps, no multistrike.

I corroborate those numbers (and my own mistake), by taking a previous build that cost 72 mana per second and adding multistrike ON TOP of that. The cost was reduced to about 50 mana per second. And it makes sense when you think about the fact that the gem gives you 50% more attacks, but 2/3 no longer cost mana. Net = about 33% less mana cost overall. Comparing equal attack speeds ofc.



But that is somewhat irrelevant. Even with the adjusted numbers....good luck sustaining even 80-100 mana per second. When the majority of melee builds have 700 or less total mana. Sustaining that indefinitely via mana will cost you likely a potion slot and an aura, on top of the mana reduction you already have to have on gear.

Your only actual choice is now going to be vaal pact + lifetap. Making it no choice at all. And a heavy dps / functionality hit.

I can assure you, i alredy had about 100 mana cost per second on my build with HH buffs and it worked fine. In fact i have 145.6 mana leech/s, plus 12.7 from mana regen using only Fuel the Fight as a source of mana leech.

Oh, and my 6l is actually a 7l. If i remove my maim lv1 from my body armor (which most people won't have), it goes down to 36 mana cost with 61 mana cost per second. Using Bladestorm of Uncertainty, Awakened Multi, Awakened Melee, Pulverise, FOrtify and Conc Effect, fyi.

So no, i'm fine, thanks for the concern.

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

i havent seen your pob. used one from ninja. that one had 5 aps BEFORE you factor repeats (rage stacker, ancestral protector, 12 frenzies and very, very fast axe)

Then that wasn't 5 aps. Attack rate counts all repeats within it. To get 5 attacks to count towards the mana count it would need to be this(with Awakened Multistrike):

Regardless, if the upfront cost is 55, you would need almost 19aps to get 255 mana cost per second.

If you have this much aps, mana cost should justifiably be a problem that 10 nodes as some are suggesting be a more than fair balancing point.

i know how to read pob. that build listed aps as ~13aps in POB, that translated roughly to ~5aps (for that particular build) ignoring repeats

it is academic discussion anyway. unless you plan to stick Multitrike into all builds (because yes, it helps with sustain - but less than you think, mostly due to instant mana leech / gain mana on hit) your typical 6link costs 50 mana per click instead of 20.

if you have natural 3 aps - 150 mana/sec JUST for the main link. add 'background' stuff like mark on hit, automation etc and you reach peaks of 200+

your mana leech cap with 700 mana is.. 140. assuming you hit all the time, you are saturated, mobs dont block etc.

many, many chars will die in HC due to sudden OOM, many new players will drop melee when their 3 link setup in act 2 uses like 40 mana/second (lacerate of whatever starts at 8(!) mana, two links bring that up to 14 per swing. i hope all melee league starters enjoy their mana flasks

there is a reason people drop 1-2 reservations and go to Blood Magic keystone - and this is a desperation move

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sidtherat wrote:

your mana leech cap with 700 mana is.. 140. assuming you hit all the time, you are saturated, mobs dont block etc.

I was just about to say this....that mana leech rate in PoB presumes perfect conditions which don't happen in real gameplay. And the ONE time it fails? You are left waiting for a full 5 seconds before you can do anything (assuming you use no other skills).

And then if you factor in higher up-front cost of all skills, it will be even harder to get going. Because you will, much more often, fall below the cost required to even use the skill leading to another interruption to the leech rate.