6000 hours of Melee Scientific Expert Tells You the Truth- Melee changes ACTUALLY 100% suck

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

in your other post youre assuming you spend the 14-16 skill points to get to that 90% attack speed. How many points on the base tree did you need to hit 90% attack speed before rite of ruin change?

Having a stroke there my man? I've said that the old and new Zerk had about the same damage without tree investment. That's a net zero from old to new. Now, those 7 introduced new points are granting a lot more damage than anywhere else in the tree for a Zerk. Those 7 points also almsot give the entirety of those 90% inc attack speed back, so i don't know where you're getting those 16 points out of, unless you're entirety ignoring that the 50% increased rage effect also affects the attack speed granted from the Zerk ascendancy.

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sidtherat wrote:

how are you expecting to sustain 180mana/s with that leech (and 180 is OPTIMISTIC, ignoring warcry burst usage etc)

i know leech is convoluted mess but guys, please, stop suggesting things you havent tried/researched before. mana leech from a cluster/jewel IS NOT ENOUGH.

unless you suggest melee invests into max mana and get 2000 + mana regen? for real? and if you do - you still call this situation 'ok, no change'?


for most players, ones that used 2 * -7 rings mana requirements went upwards of TEN times. seriously, do the math

Please, show me where the hell ya'll getting those 180s/mana out of. I just exactly only use Fuel the Fight and have never struggled, even have used Lacerate of whatever that alredy had a high cost and still had no problems whatsoever.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

[Removed by Support]

Perhaps spend a bit more time reading than spouting nonsense? Every single "solution" you offered was discussed BEFORE your post and after. There is no reason for me to repeat what others have already said and responded to, within this thread and multiple other threads.

As for my builds: I delete all builds once they hit standard. No reason to have 1000 builds from 15k+ hours in this game that I....don't touch. There is also little reason for me to prove myself to you, when you have already "proven" yourself to me.

Once again...your "solutions" are not solutions. They are handicaps. They have been discussed. You have ignored all the discussion and continue to ignore the fairly obvious downsides and basically "wrong" suggestions.

As I mentioned earlier, with each post that hole gets deeper.

Okay so doubling down on not answering anything again gotchya.


Well I guess we are at an impasse. You cant or are incapable of answering why lifetap, a solution for power issues, literally in the game for it even, would ... somehow not be a solution.

As it is for a quarter of all POE players on the leaderboards for necropolis league alone.

But I guess they are all just bandaid fixes for those players?

Nothing has been discussed about it actually, the Sid guy said blood magic. Which is not lifetap support, thats blood magic.

Funny enough, is another solution to power issues on builds that need it or choose to run it if they want to.

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

in your other post youre assuming you spend the 14-16 skill points to get to that 90% attack speed. How many points on the base tree did you need to hit 90% attack speed before rite of ruin change?

Having a stroke there my man? I've said that the old and new Zerk had about the same damage without tree investment. That's a net zero from old to new. Now, those 7 introduced new points are granting a lot more damage than anywhere else in the tree for a Zerk. Those 7 points also almsot give the entirety of those 90% inc attack speed back, so i don't know where you're getting those 16 points out of, unless you're entirety ignoring that the 50% increased rage effect also affects the attack speed granted from the Zerk ascendancy.

you cant get to 90% attack speed without spending at minimum 14 points, thats assuming the only mastery you take is the 7 rage and you arent using bears girdle.

I don't know why you would think i was having a stroke.

30 base rage

Berserking wheel- 3 points for 5 rage (forced to path there)

Vengeance wheel - 3 points for 2 rage (forced to path there)

Veterans wrath wheel - 4 points for 6 rage (forced to path there)

Battle trance - 3 points for 10 rage (forced to path there)

Mastery - 1 point for 7 rage

3+3+4+3+1 is 14, thats assuming you dont want the movespeed mastery/intimidate/or rage on warcry.

60 rage *50% effect is 90 rage so 90% more damage and 90% inc attack speed. You got 90% inc attack speed before from old rite of ruin with 0 points on the tree. Yes i know that 90% more damage gives a lot of damage compared to 180% inc damage, but you still lost the 180% to gain the 90 and at bare minimum it cost you 14 points on the tree. Then you have lost the entirety of the movement speed. Regardless of what you think about leap slamming its still a loss.

Go make a pob, drop the 14 points from rage and pick up a phys large cluster and a medium, then you arent limited to the forced pathing on the tree. you are making a large triangle on the tree to get 60 rage.

If you're considering berserk in your calculations, if youre talking about a slam build i dont know how much value you will actually get out of berserk given that you aren't hitting near as much on average as a strike skill.

With berserk thats pob cheating like using it with rite of ruin in your pob before.

Lifetap: an archetype that has always been starved for damage...now has only 5 links max for its skills? This is NOT a solution. Use your head. And you point to ninja for that?!? It is common knowledge that melee ALREADY has serious problems. So anything on ninja gives you zero useful information. Again....lack of basic knowledge on the subject. That's like telling people "Accuracy isn't a problem, just use Accuracy support!". Lifetap being near-mandatory is part of the reason why melee builds currently suffer. Making it even more mandatory...smh

Enduring Mana Flask: there isn't a single reputable melee build that can fit in a mana flask. You either need the defenses from multiple defensive flasks, or you need multiple unique flasks, plus a life flask, plus other utilities. So once again....not a solution for REAL melee builds. You were answered multiple times on this. It's a laughable suggestion to begin with. Mana flasks are used when you are in the mid stages of a build, or if there are serious mistakes with your gearing. And, as pointed out already, it still isn't enough mana recovery

Mana Leech: Sid and Kiss covered that. I would add that leech only works WHILE you are attacking. The second you stop, you are completely and utterly helpless which you CAN'T be as melee. The solution to this is being unable to reserve your mana fully, or not use any triggers. That means no mark on hit, no cwdt, nothing. Less auras because you need more base mana. Even linking every supplemental to lifetap so that the only mana cost is your main skill doesn't help because you'd never have enough mana pool to sustain enough leech to sustain the attacks.

Good enough for you? Not that it will sink in because the basic general knowledge isn't there to build upon...

There are a myriad of other issues with your supposed "solutions" that have ALSO been covered in just the last 3 pages of this thread alone, that you don't read.


I stand by what I said in my very first post....you CAN overcome the problem via the methods you mentioned, or more likely a combo of all of them. BUT (and its a huge but which you completely ignore) it comes at an ENORMOUS cost to builds that can't afford it. Not in the past, not in this current league, and certainly not with an INCREASE in the problems which we see for 3.25.

I will also point out again....GGG ALREADY did this before!!! They already messed with mana costs, to a lesser degree than these changes, and immediately walked it back because it was disastrous. Exactly NOTHING has changed with regards to mana and melee since that change. In fact, they removed more -manacost mods since then, making it an even worse situation now than it already was.

What really should happen? Eldritch battery should be moved. It should be towards the bottom left of the tree. Or, blood magic should be completely reworked yet again.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Lifetap: an archetype that has always been starved for damage...now has only 5 links max for its skills? This is NOT a solution. Use your head. And you point to ninja for that?!? It is common knowledge that melee ALREADY has serious problems. So anything on ninja gives you zero useful information. Again....lack of basic knowledge on the subject.

Enduring Mana Flask: there isn't a single reputable melee build that can fit in a mana flask. You either need the defenses from multiple defensive flasks, or you need multiple unique flasks, plus a life flask, plus other utilities. So once again....not a solution for REAL melee builds. You were answered multiple times on this. It's a laughable suggestion to begin with

Mana Leech: Sid and Kiss covered that. I would add that leech only works WHILE you are attacking. The second you stop, you are completely and utterly helpless which you CAN'T be as melee.

Good enough for you? Not that it will sink in because the basic general knowledge isn't there to build upon...

There are a myriad of other issues with your supposed "solutions" that have ALSO been covered in just the last 3 pages of this thread alone, that you don't read.


I stand by what I said in my very first post....you CAN overcome the problem via the methods you mentioned, or more likely a combo of all of them. BUT (and its a huge but which you completely ignore) it comes at an ENORMOUS cost to builds that can't afford it. Not in the past, not in this current league, and certainly not with an INCREASE in the problems which we see for 3.25.

I will also point out again....GGG ALREADY did this before!!! They already messed with mana costs, to a lesser degree than these changes, and immediately walked it back because it was disastrous. Exactly NOTHING has changed with regards to mana and melee since that change. In fact, they removed more -manacost mods since then, making it an even worse situation now than it already was.

Lifetap starved for damage what? Just use lifetap on your war cries and then you are fine? This isnt rocket science.

Leech takes care of the rest.

Enduring mana flask: use it if you need it. You can ALWAYS afford to replace a flask if you need it. Chances are you dont need it though. Because of aforementioned above. Another user mentioned leech is weak to start out, probably when you would use it, starting out and get rid of it after your leech is powerful enough.


The second you stop attacking is the second you stopped using your mouse for a skill you should have mana for because its the only thing using mana, outside of possible blessing/curse/leap slam. The rest is using lifetap.

You paint a scenario of like...

Running into the AN mana drain circle mob, stood in the outside radius as melee... somehow, and then have 0 mana regen. Or ran a no regen map?

Like why are you just done because your leech is gone? Thats a hole in a build or choosing a map modifier you cant do.



What this really boils down to is:

I would like to see the builds that are having such issues with mana that you are mentioning though. Please post them because all I am seeing is hypothetical doom saying over something that is a non-issue.

I have given you actual numbers of what skills cost and their APS the least I could get is the same in return.

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

Please, show me where the hell ya'll getting those 180s/mana out of. I just exactly only use Fuel the Fight and have never struggled, even have used Lacerate of whatever that alredy had a high cost and still had no problems whatsoever.

You do know that your example, lacerate of blahblah, has more than doubled in mana cost right? You understand the implications of that? A traditional lacerate build in the "new" mana world will have 40-50 mana cost, and you are DEFINITELY going to be attacking more than 3x a second. So.....that right there is 180/s, not including any other mana costs and using a rather slow attack speed.

20 mana (old version) could be reduced to near-zero. 40+ can be reduced to 20ish, which still works out to be probably over 100 mana per second cost vs less than 10 in the old system. And requires mods on both rings, amulet, plus some reduced mana cost investment on the tree just to even achieve that.

Combine those numbers with mana leech caps, and this mana cost change renders all of your previously successful mana management tactics essentially obsolete. Previously, the leech was faster than the degen. That won't be the case anymore. And you can't even scale it any further because more %leech doesn't equal more leech per second.

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Mashgesture wrote:

Done

I'm done engaging with this. It is clear from your comments and whatever "example" you think you provided (which you did not) that you have no meaningful experience with melee to continue this conversation any further. Even your comparisons make no sense.

I will leave one final comment that seems to have escaped you. The point of the mana issue is that it will be BECOMING an issue in 3.25. It is NOT an issue right now. These ridiculous comments on what works now, when the skills are half or less than half the mana cost, and asking for proof from existing builds....just shows how little you are digesting in this conversation.

And god only knows what kind of content you were playing with your ES slammer. And that you in your infinite wisdom see no issues with when the mana cost is doubled or even tripled next league, requiring pretty vast changes to accommodate.

Lacerate of whatever (Haemorrhage)

NEW base cost 13 (old: 6)

typical supports via ninja (have no idea what are best):
melee phys (130)
brutality (140)
volatility (130)
MULTISTRIKE (150)
endurance charge on melee stun (120)

new total cost 56 mana per click

it doesnt take much investment to get that to 3aps (pre-multistrike) - the build ive checked was closer to 5aps (~260 mana/sec - it is caster territory now ffs).

good luck sustaining that with leech :)

with old value (27) two rings brought it down to 11 (resulting in 55mana/sec)

it takes to have no experience to not see a HUGE difference.

ps. lifetap on that 56mana means 150 life per attack, 750life/sec at 5aps. it aint pretty and i bet the outcry on reddit is going to be huge

(sure, you can invest in 'solving' that - 10 passives or whatever - but why arent caster expected to solve their accuracy woes? why it is always melee that get this kind of crap?