Reminder: Selectable Character Gender is a "Minimum Bar."

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

self-victimizing, emotional extortion, constant use of fallacies and downright bad faith

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1453R wrote:

Not all fights worth fighting can be won. Pretty squarely lost this one to the Chadbros. Can only hope that at some point in the future, the war shifts and it becomes possible to start winning a few of these fights. Until then, guess I have a fresh reminder of why I tend to avoid these forums. "People Like Me" are very, very clearly not welcome here.

Sounds about right.

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NorbertLa wrote:

Furthermore, you tend to paint every opinion contrary to yours with the broad stroke of "fall in line mentality"

I do? Like what? If anything what I do (or did) most is question that GGG is right/infallible as the default position to start off with. I think antagonism is OK if its in good faith. In fact it's healthy. You don't really don't want echo chambers and group thought as the status quo. There have been a ton of examples of this in the past. GGG introducing loot boxes, or the streamer priority queue, or their opposition to SSF as examples.

When it comes the the general community it's often exactly the reverse. Diablo as another example, probably the one I'm most known for engaging with, how can anyone defend the position of "D4 bad" as the starting point? It obviously can be "bad" from an individual perspective, I can live with that, but not as an objective truth. Honestly that's absurd. It makes discussion impossible. There are positive things that are in D4 that GGG can learn from from competitive and accessibility standpoint, while still maintaining their identity and niche.

God help you trying to get that point across though, or *gasp, play both games?! I eventually gave up on that from a serious debate standpoint. It's an unwinnable biased nightmare here. "Diablo" might as well be added to the CoC as inflammatory for its name only lol.

Anyways I would disagree wholeheartedly on that characterization of my selective antagonism. GGG, infact, doesn't get it right all the time.

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

I agree that some games should not have locked gender, PoE included, but you are quickly eroding any arguments you made if that's how you want to keep conducting this argument. And let's not fool anyone, this is an argument, not a fact that all games that can do so, should be forced to do so.

I think i alredy made myself clear. Cheers.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This thread is equal parts sad, and infuriating on just the behavior alone. The tech space is bad with bro culture no doubt, but gamers are the worst, truly. This particular community? ...ugh what a change over the years, especially if you have even remotest sense of an opposing opinion to the popular belief. It's really bad.

Anyways GGG gonna GGG. At some point a gaming journalist, or content creator, or whomever, is going to ask about this topic during the PoE2 media blitz. I hope GGG and their marketing team have a good response from a PR standpoint outlined on why they have chosen against player diversity here. Especially given their documented commentary on the subject previously with their desire to address it. Given the opportunity PoE2 has presented, with the character modeling and rigging upgrades, the intentionality of not including a gender option is magnified. Not great excuses left.

Pretty sad to see a good game like this having such a bad community. Hopefully this is the case and they'll get asked about this topic in another media.

I like being able to choose character gender as it provides some player license in rpg immersion. Hope this isn't too controversial.

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ladish wrote:

I like being able to choose character gender as it provides some player license in rpg immersion. Hope this isn't too controversial.

The only thing controversial thing about this whole thread is saying its "a minimum bar" aka a requirement. Nothing wrong with asking and giving reasons why but saying you HAVE to is where it goes wrong.

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Solrac_1 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This thread is equal parts sad, and infuriating on just the behavior alone. The tech space is bad with bro culture no doubt, but gamers are the worst, truly. This particular community? ...ugh what a change over the years, especially if you have even remotest sense of an opposing opinion to the popular belief. It's really bad.

Anyways GGG gonna GGG. At some point a gaming journalist, or content creator, or whomever, is going to ask about this topic during the PoE2 media blitz. I hope GGG and their marketing team have a good response from a PR standpoint outlined on why they have chosen against player diversity here. Especially given their documented commentary on the subject previously with their desire to address it. Given the opportunity PoE2 has presented, with the character modeling and rigging upgrades, the intentionality of not including a gender option is magnified. Not great excuses left.

Pretty sad to see a good game like this having such a bad community. Hopefully this is the case and they'll get asked about this topic in another media.

It doesn't have a bad community.

I have been around here longer than this current account (prior account - Steam thing) and while I can say it has maybe increased in the # of trolls present it is far from bad. There are many peeps here capable of forming sound, cogent arguments, moreso than most forums I'd wager, but it is the internet where raw emotion rules and any amateur logician knows that kind of emotion is the death of proper argumentation.

Keep an open mind and recognize the BS for what it is

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Glorfndel01 wrote:

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Solrac_1 wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

This thread is equal parts sad, and infuriating on just the behavior alone. The tech space is bad with bro culture no doubt, but gamers are the worst, truly. This particular community? ...ugh what a change over the years, especially if you have even remotest sense of an opposing opinion to the popular belief. It's really bad.

Anyways GGG gonna GGG. At some point a gaming journalist, or content creator, or whomever, is going to ask about this topic during the PoE2 media blitz. I hope GGG and their marketing team have a good response from a PR standpoint outlined on why they have chosen against player diversity here. Especially given their documented commentary on the subject previously with their desire to address it. Given the opportunity PoE2 has presented, with the character modeling and rigging upgrades, the intentionality of not including a gender option is magnified. Not great excuses left.

Pretty sad to see a good game like this having such a bad community. Hopefully this is the case and they'll get asked about this topic in another media.

It doesn't have a bad community.

I have been around here longer than this current account (prior account - Steam thing) and while I can say it has maybe increased in the # of trolls present it is far from bad. There are many peeps here capable of forming sound, cogent arguments, moreso than most forums I'd wager, but it is the internet where raw emotion rules and any amateur logician knows that kind of emotion is the death of proper argumentation.

Keep an open mind and recognize the BS for what it is

I mean this sounds nice & all, but unfortunately it's not the reality. In point of fact, GGG themselves had all their developers all but abandon interactions with the community due to their mental health from simply reading things that go on, how they are presented, and how they are directed. (on the PoE Reddit as well) - let alone how the community members themselves interact with each other... just yikes.

It's one of the reasons (not the only) why we don't even have a community manager any longer, but rather an innocuous "community team" so that no one feels directly targeted. Again, maybe some of the longer term folks don't even realize the change over time, but right now, in my opinion, it's one of the worst in gaming. PoE is a game that's hard to get into, hard to understand, hard to keep up on, and changes rapidly & drastically. The amount of community based 3rd party tools & discords are unprecedented. I'd argue the community plays a more important role here than in most games because of some of these factors. You combine all that and you get a rather nasty mix.

This is actually one of the things I'm actually looking forward to in PoE2; a somewhat refreshed community, with hopefully a decent portion of folks remaining in PoE1 that would otherwise taint the sequel. I do anticipate some inter-PoE friction if it turns out PoE2 is more casual friendly. I suppose time will tell on that.

Edit: In the interest of fairness, I have heard some good things about some guilds in-game. While I was never part of one, I won't discount that there are probably quite a few anecdotes about how positive that experience is and was.

We had a banger of a community in 2012.

Then again, we also had an entry fee at the door.

Not to simplify, but I don't think the two are unrelated.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

We had a banger of a community in 2012.

Then again, we also had an entry fee at the door.

Not to simplify, but I don't think the two are unrelated.

When I joined in early 2014, it was pretty clear that they would let anyne in without any question.