Mirror of Kalandra

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jsuslak313 wrote:

^No....the problem is the loss of exclusive boss drops. Period.

But what is the problem there? What is it about items being able to be acquired in more than one way that's bad to you? I mean, the item doesn't care. The boss doesn't care. So where does the negative come from?

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

But what is the problem there? What is it about items being able to be acquired in more than one way that's bad to you? I mean, the item doesn't care. The boss doesn't care. So where does the negative come from?

The item and the boss DO care though....it is their reason for existence! The shaper exists to drop specific items unobtainable elsewhere. The items exist to be dropped by the shaper, thus filling a "special" tier of item, generally more powerful than any run-of-the-mill unique or rare.

When these items are dropped anywhere else, the shaper loses his reason for existence and the item loses its specialty.

This is an arpg. Bosses don't simply exist as a "challenge": they exist to drop chase-able and unique loot. This is true of nearly every arpg that has ever existed.

De-incentivizing bossing and removing exclusive drops via cards weakens the genre, weakens the game, and devalues the design and meaning for boss fights. They also lose any sense of replayability. This all still happens whether I PERSONALLY fight the boss or not.

THAT is why its a problem. In my 10 years of playing the game, WHY should I fight the Shaper more than once if there isn't anything special that drops? GGG could "artificially" FORCE extra boss fights on players, but it is just far better design and historically tested design to offer drops that can only be found via a specific event or fight.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

The item and the boss DO care though....it is their reason for existence!

They're code in a computer program man. They don't know or care what you think their reason for existence is.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

De-incentivizing bossing and removing exclusive drops via cards weakens the genre, weakens the game, and devalues the design and meaning for boss fights.

This is waffle; a lot of words that say absolutely nothing. The genre is doing just fine. "Devalues the design and meaning" is barely even grammatical.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

They also lose any sense of replayability.

THAT is why its a problem. In my 10 years of playing the game, WHY should I fight the Shaper more than once if there isn't anything special that drops?

There we are. We're all caught up; you've realised it has actually been about the player's experience all along, because human beings are the ones experiencing the game.

I'm not telling you to play the Shaper more than once. It's a videogame, do what makes you happy. If playing the game isn't intrinsically enjoyable, I would suggest doing something else with your time, because doing things you don't find fun in order to get some payment at the end is generally called a job, and this job doesn't pay very well.

Beyond that, I'd be repeating myself. In a trade league, you are already not playing the Shaper for exclusive access to uniques. So you can tell me if you like: why do you fight the Shaper more than once?

This may be contentious among gamers who play something designed to be addictive, but: "replayability" is not inherently good. It's okay for things to end. A movie that's 58 hours long is not inherently better for it, it just costs more of your life in order to experience. There is absolutely nothing wrong with only fighting a pinnacle boss once per character. If you want to do it more, great, have fun. If you don't, cool.

If you don't want to but you will if you get a trinket...well, I would consider that as raising a bit of a red flag about my habits, if it was me. It's normal to not like bits of any game and go through them anyway, of course (eg. lots of people don't like the labyrinth but do it to get back to the rest of the game). But if you've reached a point where the game has you feeling like you need to consistently do things you don't like, that sounds like a good place to stop.

Besides, there's still absurd amounts of 'replayability' anyway, in new characters.

Whatever...we disagree. I fundamentally disagree with nearly every line you have said so far, and you even ridicule a "literal" reading that is pretty obviously not meant to be literal.

You are so unbelievably fixated on YOUR singular experience with the game, and not the game as a whole and adamantly refuse to ask yourself "what's good for the game" rather than "what's good for ME".

None of this really has anything to do with the thread we are arguing in so I'm done here.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Whatever...we disagree. I fundamentally disagree with nearly every line you have said so far, and you even ridicule a "literal" reading that is pretty obviously not meant to be literal.

Well I meant it literally when I said the item and boss don't care, which you were replying to. Because fundamentally a problem is a perception by a thinking being - the game design simply existing in a certain state (eg. "no exclusive boss drops") isn't actually a problem unless it's doing something negative for someone. So I was establishing the need to anchor the issue in human experience, not abstract design rules. The point required it to be literal.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You are so unbelievably fixated on YOUR singular experience with the game, and not the game as a whole and adamantly refuse to ask yourself "what's good for the game" rather than "what's good for ME".

"What's good for the game?" is not a well defined question; I would never ask that because I can't tell what you mean by it. Not to belabour the point but again: the game doesn't care. It's a vague hint toward something else, but I don't know why you'd expect me to know what that other thing is, let alone care about it, if you're not going to say it.

Does it mean "what's good for GGG's bank account?" Does it mean "what would make Path of Exile more popular?" Does it mean "what do the majority like the most?" Why would I ask things like that? I don't need to advocate for GGG or their product, they're already in control and will, no doubt, always do what they think is best for them. And other people can speak for themselves, that's what the forum is here for. They don't need me to pretend to speak for them, and I would be pretending, because I'm not them. I wouldn't want them pretending to speak for me.

Surely you're not actually surprised that people come to a feedback and suggestions forum and speak of their own preferences.

Bumping this as I still find it to be a good idea. Make mirrors even more rare for all I care. Make people thing twice about investing into making mirror tiered items and reward those that do. It will become even more exclusive.
Mirror tier items nowdays is not anything special since currency is so easy to come by and people will just mirror their items to no end.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Div Cards REMOVE the exclusivity of boss drops, but Trade does not. Totally different scenario with regards to the problem at hand.

It isn't really focused on how you obtain the item, but rather in general how the item is obtained.

i agree with pirate and yourself.



if someone trades their item from the boss that is up to them. they have earned the right to do that, its about them its not about the guy buying it. they race through the games content, start farming the boss before everyone else, theyre the first ones to get the boss drop, they have displayed that mastery of the game and they now control that item. they have earned it, the boss has a reason to exist, a reason for people to build for it and race to it with those builds, take on that challenge.

if they want to sell it that is up to them, they have earned that ability and they control that market at that point in time. that is their reward.

if that same boss drop is on the market from div cards before anyone in the league has even reached and killed the boss that item drops from that ruins a whole dynamic of the game created by the boss having a loot table and exclusive drops. theres a whole structure there of content rushing game mastery and involvement thats just being undercut.






the devs get this, they have said they are not happy with the situation where boss exclusive uniques are on the market before the boss has even been killed. they have said they are not happy with how div cards are working with chase items in general, the way it warps the map meta making everyone farm the same couple of maps because thats where the super chase item cards are. i think it was mark who sort of put it out there for feedback in an interview they did?


the game has built in win conditions and mastery behaviours that can be discussed objectively, talking about being 'good' or 'bad' at the game in this context has got nothing to do with flaming or fanboying anyone. the game itself sets up win conditions that allow players to be good at the game, display mastery over the game. racing to certain boss content, being one of the first to farm it and then controlling that first buys market is a big win condition that the game intentionally sets up. if people cant understand that... ok, thats fine im not making any personal judgements, but the devs understand that and agree that its a problem when div cards completely undermine that dynamic.

The 'undercutting' complaint is interesting.

Undercutting in 'real life' can be a problem mainly because it's often large conglomerates exploiting or even outright destroying small businesses. Which can have a negative effect not only on a few owners' and employees' finances, but the whole culture of an area for potentially generations. Lively streets closing down to be replaced by carparks and giant department stores, etc.

Here, though, we're undercutting a boss's loot pile. There has to be some kind of negative effect for it to be a problem, so I can only conclude that that harm is either or both of:
a) the people who fight the bosses (or would otherwise fight the bosses) feeling disappointed, either that their item no longer doubles as a trophy or that their time was 'wasted'
b) a drop-off in people wanting to fight the bosses at all due to factors like (a) and the "controlling the first buys market" effect mentioned - which is in itself not harmful (nothing bad happens due to nobody fighting a boss) but I'm sure GGG don't want their hard work (and money spent) going to waste. There are likely knock-on effects in terms of attracting and keeping players.

(There's also (c), the issue Snorkle mentions about people running the same few maps for the div cards, but that's an issue with the design of div cards in general, and I'm here talking just about the effects on boss-fighting)

My question to developers, then, is: what do these things say about your game? If your apparent fans won't play your bosses without getting an exclusive item, what does that say about the bosses? Do you intend to make a game that's enjoyable to play? Are you attracting players that enjoy playing your game?

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

My question to developers, then, is: what do these things say about your game? If your apparent fans won't play your bosses without getting an exclusive item, what does that say about the bosses? Do you intend to make a game that's enjoyable to play? Are you attracting players that enjoy playing your game?

This seems to be a bit off topic from what the purpose of this thread but I understand that conversations can branch out.

To answer this last paragraph, this is part of why they are making poe2. For people that feel like Souls-like boss fights are more fun than a fast paced god mode gameplay. I know they have stated that poe2 isn't necessarily slower paced than poe1 but I have a feeling that they are talking about exp gain rate, loot and such and not the actual moment to moment gameplay, time will tell I suppose.

The only thing I think they need to tweak is uber pinnacle content since it's still trivial if you have a god build, any content below that I feel is fine as-is.
I can't see many solutions to uber pinnacle content outside of making multiple invuln phases on each boss, layering one shot boss damage mechanics during invuln phase that you have to outplay. This way gear nor damage will matter and only players skill. In poe2 this will likely be a non-problem because of how the game is made from scratch.

No one is going to choose to fight a boss over and over again simply because it is a well-crafted fight. They could have the greatest, most imaginative, most intense boss fight ever created....but if there isn't loot associated with that fight, people will do it once and never again. And this is especially true if its a LONG fight. Which, based on many of the comments here, is what it would need to be. Biggest problem with bossing in current PoE is that they can be brought down in seconds.

This isn't the genre where players just want to fight a particular boss. The loot is first, always. Well designed fights are AWESOME, but if there's no loot to be had, its useless bloat.

I think what it says about the game is that....loot is the driver of everything. But that is something that everyone should know, if they are playing a loot-based arpg. No matter what the content is, loot is #1 and if its not there, then the content is garbage.