Void league character

Yeah, no. I don't agree with the popup excuse. Imagine seeing this and not questioning it further.

However, this is a great learning experience. Reading is important :)

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

Clearly from the POV of normal players (not fine print contract analysts) this is an implied promise that this is the mode where you cant die.

Well, I tend to think that when you're talking about "breaking promises" (rather than just game design you don't like) you've put yourself in the realm of 'fine print contract analysis'.

Do not agree. My take is: Promises exist on many levels. You can make a promise with a child. Or a dog. If you get a dog it will expect you to stay with it. Giving it away later = breaking the "implied promise". Etc.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

But in what way do you think the game has promised this to people if you don't think reading text is an acceptable expectation in the first place?

You are twisting my words with "you don't think reading text is an acceptable expectation". Maybe read what I wrote. Putting the warning into character generation in fat red like is done for HC modes would be a proper place. Some ingame popup on its own is not.

I did read what you wrote. You were saying it's understandable to ignore text boxes,

No, I did not. The context was playing the game. And I was talking about popus.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

because "it's an ARPG, not a read text popups game" (??). My point is, character creation info is text boxes that pop up too.

You get a new screen after you click character creation. I wouldnt call that "popup". And its in line with player expectation that after you told the game "start game" that you get to select stuff. Furthermore this is also where I expect things regarding character deaths are governed. Not somewhere in the middle of the game during gameplay.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

So isn't it just as acceptable for people to ignore that?

First no as just outlined. Second if they do and just randomly clicked than there was no promise (that they are aware of). So if they click HC and then end up in Standard - there is nothing the game could have reasonably done better. So I dont have an issue with it.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Don't we have to recognise that reading and analysing text boxes, far from something to be dismissed, is in fact a core expectation of this ARPG?

Its about expected consequences of not reading. If you do that at character generation its expected for that to govern important things about character. And if you do that in the middle of the gameplay its (for me at least) expected that it doesnt effect the character itself. In addition to that this has nothing to do with wanting popups during gameplay. Its IMO bad design that PoE throws so much text at players. And this has been brought up many times for other things like Expedition or Altars or Labyrinth portal exit.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

I mean how are you getting gear for your character, deciding on your path across the passive tree etc, without analysis of the thousands of popup text boxes that are part of that process?

And I can just ignore these while playing and it will have zero effect. I also dont have to click to get rid of them.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

If HC deaths are also voided and character generation still shows that message then its an explict broken promise.

Dead HC characters become Standard characters, yes; they aren't voided. Nothing to worry about there.

Source? If I was not clear: What happens to HC characters that die in a "void mod" Valdo map?

"

Zrevnur wrote:

What happens to HC characters that die in a "void mod" Valdo map?

The map says the character will end up in Void league, doesn't matter if you are coming from SC or HC, Void league is where you end up. Valdo maps and Void league has nothing to do with HC.

"

CrazylikE wrote:

Would have to agree with Gus here. You have to read so much in this game to do anything, why is it suddenly bad to read a popup,

If you are referring to me: Im posting about game design here. Whether its "good" or "bad" for players to read it or not is a different matter. Having to read it is bad. And you say yourself "You have to read so much in this game to do anything": Obviously this is subjective but but from my POV this is a bad thing which could easily be improved upon. What we have here however is doubling down on the text reading by adding more text with far greater consequences.

"

CrazylikE wrote:

You have to read map mods normally too,

In SC - no. You cant even do unided maps if you need to read map mods.

"

CrazylikE wrote:

I'm sorry to have to say this, but if you don't read and you die to reflect,

The game "randomly" killing you is expected behavior.

"

CrazylikE wrote:

or don't read and get sent to void league,

The game "randomly" deleting your character is not expected behavior.

"

CrazylikE wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

What happens to HC characters that die in a "void mod" Valdo map?

The map says the character will end up in Void league, doesn't matter if you are coming from SC or HC, Void league is where you end up. Valdo maps and Void league has nothing to do with HC.

If thats so then the promise at character generation (if its still there) that your character ends up in Standard at death is broken by that.


Edit: Apparently they removed it. So it just says "Hardcore Affliction" now without the red warning text about Standard.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

CrazylikE wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

What happens to HC characters that die in a "void mod" Valdo map?

The map says the character will end up in Void league, doesn't matter if you are coming from SC or HC, Void league is where you end up. Valdo maps and Void league has nothing to do with HC.

If thats so then the promise at character generation (if its still there) that your character ends up in Standard at death is broken by that.

Edit: Apparently they removed it. So it just says "Hardcore Affliction" now without the red warning text about Standard.

More new info. Help section of game:

The ingame Help says that HC characters that die are sent to Standard. An explict promise.

It also says that if your character in "Standard" dies you respawn etc. This is also an explicit promise.


So in general Valdo Void deaths are broken explicit promises.

Appreciate the image, Scarletsword; I wasn't sure how clear the warning was. That's pretty clear! Especially since everyone at that point should know that this kind of warning popup is not really something the game makes a habit of, so it should set off some alarm bells. As long as you can't accidentally close the box by clicking outside it or moving the character or something, that's pretty solid.

I do think it's unhelpful of them to keep calling this behaviour "sent to the Void League" instead of just "permanently deleted" or the like. It seems needlessly obtuse - as shown by the fact that they immediately have to follow up with a sentence explaining what the term means because they know it isn't actually giving you any useful information!

It isn't a league (in the sense that matters to players; I'm sure there's programmer-side justification, in terms of temporarily storing the dead character in an invisible 'league' on the servers, but who cares). So don't call it a league.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

I wouldnt call that "popup".

Okay, cool. I'm happy to though. It's not there, and then it's there: it pops up.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

If thats so then the promise at character generation (if its still there) that your character ends up in Standard at death is broken by that.

The hover text over Hardcore (for Hardcore Standard) currently says "A character killed in Hardcore becomes a Standard character".

Do you think it's making the game better to change that to "A character killed in Hardcore becomes a Standard character, unless they are killed in a map with the modifier 'Players who die in area are sent to the Void', in which case they are sent to Void League and are no longer playable."

I don't. "Not breaking a promise" takes a backseat to "not making a mess of your new-player information".

"

Zrevnur wrote:

If you are referring to me: Im posting about game design here. Whether its "good" or "bad" for players to read it or not is a different matter. Having to read it is bad. And you say yourself "You have to read so much in this game to do anything": Obviously this is subjective but but from my POV this is a bad thing which could easily be improved upon. What we have here however is doubling down on the text reading by adding more text with far greater consequences.

You can't have a game like this without it being about reading. You have to read what gems do, what quests wants you to do, what items do, what currency does. Eveything is about reading, and will always be about reading, that's a huge part of the game whether you like it or not.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

In SC - no. You cant even do unided maps if you need to read map mods.

If you willingly enter an unidentified map, you do so knowing that there's a good chance you will die because one or more mods will brick your build, just like if you enter a voided map, knowing there's a big chance you will end up in void league.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

The game "randomly" killing you is expected behavior.

Only if you refuse to read and learn what mods your build can handle.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

The game "randomly" deleting your character is not expected behavior.

It's not random, you are warned by a mod on the map, AND a popup. What more can you ask.

You act as if reading isn't a thing in this game. How do you get anything done in this game if you read nothing? So silly to me.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

If thats so then the promise at character generation (if its still there) that your character ends up in Standard at death is broken by that.

The hover text over Hardcore (for Hardcore Standard) currently says "A character killed in Hardcore becomes a Standard character".

Do you think it's making the game better to change that to "A character killed in Hardcore becomes a Standard character, unless they are killed in a map with the modifier 'Players who die in area are sent to the Void', in which case they are sent to Void League and are no longer playable."

I don't. "Not breaking a promise" takes a backseat to "not making a mess of your new-player information".

You are using the existence of Void deaths as starting point. I dont: The kind of issue you hint here for me is indication that Void deaths do not belong in the game. And do you now agree that there is a broken promise?

"

Zrevnur wrote:

do you now agree that there is a broken promise?

That is not how I would describe it, no.