Why PoE 2 will again not get a Auction house? (or trading system)

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Kurnis wrote:

because ggg doesn't really care

It's way worse than that actually, it's not that they don't care, they actually think it's good as it is.

No one in their right minds would call the current system "good", and I don't think GGG does either. I just think they fear certain alternatives more. So, I don't think they view it as "good", but rather "good enough, and better than the alternatives".

They've made a completely new game, where they'll probably use several years to fine tune the progression. A new trading system with unknown repercussions is a dangerous thing in that regard.

The only real issue I have with POE is the devs' stubbornness to keep this godawful trading system. It's like you're trying to argue with your grandma on the changing times. No matter what you say or do, their opinion is unflinching.

There will be no automatic, mail-based or auctionhouse trading system.
Players need interaction in order to show off their hideouts and other MTX, as well as challenge rewards. Without it, there will be less microtransaction purchases.

The only thing that I think can be implemented, is stall-type trading. Setting up a trade stall inside your hideout from which other players can purchase items that have set price.
Probably the only way to go. It doesn't require the player to trade manually, but requires the buyer to visit the seller's hideout and interact in there.

This stall-type trading would drive stash sales, as premium stashes only would be set as stalls, and with automation you could just drop loads of items to sell and immediately go back to playing, instead of having to trade items one by one, so the amount space required for sale items would increase.

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krytyk411 wrote:

There will be no automatic, mail-based or auctionhouse trading system.
Players need interaction in order to show off their hideouts and other MTX, as well as challenge rewards. Without it, there will be less microtransaction purchases.

Y'all really need to quit it with this conspiracymongering nonsense. Grinding Gear up and dun told y'all why trade is the way it is. If you had your frictionless perfect EZPZ no-interaction-required instant buyout Trade House system, items would come in precisely two price brackets - wisdom scraps, or Mirrors.

There is no in between, because once you open trade up to being completely and utterly frictionless and effortless, there's no longer any reason to not throw every single drop you pick up and don't end up using in a trade tab somewhere. It costs zero effort and zero resources, so why not? Somebody'll buy it eventually, ne? And then the only way to get your items sold is to have something rare/scarce enough everybody wants it and demand infinitely outweighs supply (in which case your item is priced in Mirrors), because elsewise your item is common enough that there's infinitely more supply than there is demand (in which case your item is priced in wisdom scraps).

Again - there is no in between. When you open the game up to completely effortless and utterly frictionless sale of absolutely everything all the time, the market instantly bloats to the point of immediate death and nobody gets what they want out of trade anymore.

So stop it. Trade friction is the only damn reason you can make sales worth any amount of currency below Mirrors, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "selling MTXs". Nobody buys those to show them off to other players, people buy them because they want to use and look at those MTXs themselves.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Kurnis wrote:

because ggg doesn't really care

It's way worse than that actually, it's not that they don't care, they actually think it's good as it is.

No one in their right minds would call the current system "good", and I don't think GGG does either. I just think they fear certain alternatives more. So, I don't think they view it as "good", but rather "good enough, and better than the alternatives".

They've made a completely new game, where they'll probably use several years to fine tune the progression. A new trading system with unknown repercussions is a dangerous thing in that regard.

That is half semantics and half false. They don't even have to think about alternatives to improve what they have. There is a ton of grey area between what we have and that dreadful auction house that's haunting everyone in their nightmares. There are so many ways to make the current system suck WAY less than it does now without abandoning the underlying principle of having people come face to face to conclude the trade. And yet, in more than a decade of development, this is all we ever got. That honestly says way more about what they think than any of your comments ever could.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

That is half semantics and half false. They don't even have to think about alternatives to improve what they have. There is a ton of grey area between what we have and that dreadful auction house that's haunting everyone in their nightmares. There are so many ways to make the current system suck WAY less than it does now without abandoning the underlying principle of having people come face to face to conclude the trade. And yet, in more than a decade of development, this is all we ever got. That honestly says way more about what they think than any of your comments ever could.

I agree with you. I'm just trying to see it from their perspective here, which is hard. I was honestly expecting some sort of trade improvement in PoE 2, but Mark and Jonathan just looked at each other with huge question marks over their head when asked about it, before one of them said "no, no need to".

It's sad, especially as PoE 2 will be a brand new game, where they could've made some sort of system from the ground up, seamlessly woven into the game in a way that made sense.

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Phrazz wrote:

I agree with you. I'm just trying to see it from their perspective here, which is hard. I was honestly expecting some sort of trade improvement in PoE 2, but Mark and Jonathan just looked at each other with huge question marks over their head when asked about it, before one of them said "no, no need to".

It's sad, especially as PoE 2 will be a brand new game, where they could've made some sort of system from the ground up, seamlessly woven into the game in a way that made sense.

I saw it more as them wondering why PoE1 and PoE2 would need to have strongly disparate trading systems/environments. As Jonathan said, any trade improvements they make for 2 would likely be things they could just backhack into 1 easily enough

The problem is that trade in Path of Exile requires controls, limits, or brakes in order to function the way people expect it to function. At the same time, players in Path of Exile will never accept controls, limits, or brakes on trade. Until they can trade 100% utterly freely for any item at any time without restriction, interference, or need for interaction, they will continue to hiss and spit and snarl and gnash and caterwaul about trade being "awful". And the very same players would be the first ones to complain about market bloating, hyper-oversaturation, and the inability to make meaningful sales if they got what they profess to want.

Grinding Gear is screwed if they do and screwed if they don't, they're gonna catch infinite shit over trade no matter what they do, so they may as well stick to the trade system they know functions./ Is it old, creaky, rusty, and kinda super jank? Yes. Does it do what it needs to do at a base minimum? Also yes. Would messing with it quite possibly break the game forever for non-SSF people? Again, yes.

So why mess with it?

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1453R wrote:

So why mess with it?

Because it isn't good enough.

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The problem is that trade in Path of Exile requires controls, limits, or brakes in order to function the way people expect it to function.

I agree.

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At the same time, players in Path of Exile will never accept controls, limits, or brakes on trade.

I seriously do not think this is the case anymore. I've made the same argument several times before, and a lot of responses made it seem like a lot of people would actually accept it. That said, forum representation and all that. I know I would accept a heavily controlled market with serious limitations for a better, more intuitive trading system.

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1453R wrote:

The problem is that trade in Path of Exile requires controls, limits, or brakes in order to function the way people expect it to function.

The current system isn't putting up any of those sadly. All it does is make it tedious. Plus even if we actually went all the way with an AH, there are plenty of ways to do that WHILE putting actual controls, limits and breaks on it.

It would be easy to stop price fixing in an AH for example because people can no longer list things with no intention of selling them. No fasttrade system would mean limited arbitrage abuse via bots, auction limit can prevent oversaturation and would be an actual limit, not something that can be negated by just buying another premium tab.
If all the item exchanges in the game had to go through an auction house where GGG makes the rules they would have ALL the control. Unlike now where people can use discord channels to agree on trades for stuff that's not even supposed to be tradeable just by meeting ingame.

The tediousness is the brake. That's the entire point - trade is not frictionless. It is not free. You have to spend your own time hunting for items to buy, then trying to buy what you need. And conversely you have to stop whatever it is you're doing and respond to requests for a sale.

I know that's the point. I know people will do anything to get rid of that last barrier, so they can 100% for-certain guarantee they will always get the first item they try to buy the first time they try to buy it, and so they can continue to grind their hyper-specific content of choice all day every day without ever having to stop and make a profit. Trade is currently painful, even if it's less painful than it's ever been, and people will scream their heads off until that pain goes away.

But that way lies the madness of market hypersaturation. You talk about artificial, programmatic brakes on trade, but do you honestly believe the people shrieking and shrieking and shrieking and shrieking for Infinite Free Frictionless Trade Forever will put up with things like sale limits, stack size limits, timeouts or lockouts, or any of the other methods they keep pretending they'll "accept" for just long enough to get the Auction House they're so desperate for?

I don't. Because those artificial limits represent pain points in the trading process, things that stop people from completing trades they might otherwise want to complete. And we all know what this playerbase does when it experiences pain points in trading. The very microinstant we get the Auction House, those same players who said they'd be perfectly happy forever if they could just get a proper buyout system so people had to honor their deals and they could guarantee 100% always-first-time acquisition of whatever they wanted to buy? No matter what other controls or brakes that Auction House came with? Yeah - they'd be screaming their faces purple over how much the artificial controls and limiters in the new trade system sucked and how everything would be better if Grinding Gear just removed them and "let people trade however they want to trade!"

There's no satisfying those people short of market hypersaturation, at which point they will discover that there is no satisfying those people at all. They want a magical fairyland in which they can instantly and painlessly buy whatever they want whenever they want for whatever price they want, instantly and painlessly sell whatever they want whenever they want for any arbitrary price they decide, and have it all work seamlessly with no problems whatsoever. That magical fairyland does not and cannot exist, no matter how hard these people may pine for it.

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EDIT: Y'know what? Query for all y'all Infinite Free Trade Forever folks.

What would you say if Path of Exile adopted the Last Epoch system (at least I think it was Last Epoch that did this), and once an item was traded it acquired the "Traded" item tag, and it could never be traded again? It becomes account-bound to you and you are never able to flip or resell or in any other way return the item to the market. Once an item sells once - one single time - it is permanently and forever out of circulation. You CANNOT make money flipping, the way 99.89796578% of all Money players make their money. Hell, if I had my way it'd even apply to currency - trade that divine orb away for a bunch of chaos, and that is now your chaos, you cannot use it to then trade for somebody else's thingamajobber.

How do y'all think that'd work, in PoE?