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Thanks, yes my post might got a bit too long, not 100% as readable as I would like. Hope to improve one day.
So point by point:
1. Misinformation. For last 4 years most posts related to PoE2 tried to diminish it's scope, calling it "just new campaing and some updates" or "just bigger exansion", forgetting that at Exilecon 2019 it was presented as complete overhaul of the game. This is relevant, because that misnformation set expectations of people wrong way.
The real information is still available in Exilecon 2019 footage and on old PoE2 website, which could be still found.
2. Unified gameplay. This is not a convoluted way of trying to insult you, it is an honest question. How would you imagine that "unified gameplay"? For me it was always obvious that "unified gameplay" means having basically new game (PoE2) with an option to play old campaing and somehow reuse old standard items. No matter what would you play, PoE1 campaing, PoE2 campaign or end game, you would do that using PoE2 mechanics and game systems. The only thing left from PoE1 would be campaign.
Again I refer to source materials from 2019.
3.There we get to the elephant in the room, those old characters and items. I understand that it can be a point of grieviance here. Not being able to use your collection in PoE2 probably isn't the best feeling. On the other hand it is good to look back and think about how realistic that would be. Considering the scope of changes (at the time, in 2019), even if they tried very hard, I do not think that it would be, in any meaningful way successful.
4. The final point, the "lie'. The 3 points above were just background, I believe very important background. Main question here: What is the "lie" here and when that lie actuallyhappen.ed. In 2019 PoE2 was in early development stages, their plans were bold, actually enormous but everything could have changed. Again it was and still is in development. Yes, during that development plans changed a bit and in the end those changes have been communicated. Could they have been communicated earlier? Maybe, maybe not. Again we do not know when exactly they finalised details of it. Announcing it early and then making more changes to it could spread more confusion. At that time there was already a lot of confusion and misinformation about PoE2.What we know is that around April 2021 they started going in that direction. We do not know how much time passed beore they ironed their vision in that regards.
4b. I know that at the moment people do not feel like that (especially ones who invested a lot into standard) but the change in delivery of PoE2 is much less significant that some people believe. In accordance to CW 85-90% players play leagues, not standard. From those 10-15% probably good number wouldn't mind fresh start. I am not saying that standard players should be treated worse. I am just saying that developer has to look at playerbase as a whole and cannot make everyone happy 100%. So I suspect that GGG didn't consider 'split' as that big departure from original plan. I believe they consider it much more as a possitive thing than some players perceive.
In the end I do not see any lie or malicious misinformation from GGG side here. Maybe some not so great pulic relations and marketing, that's all.
I apologize for my harsh remarks in the previous post at your "mountain of arguments with no proof". and thanks for the constructive and highly organized reply.
To answer your question:
Unified Endgame from the information i received was supposed to be a separated campaign experience but once you reached a certain point in each games progression you would be able to interact with the other and at this point the games would be essentially be the same except PoE1 and PoE2 would have different characters and skill tree.
This is what i have thus spent a lot of time convincing people would be the result because well.. Faith in GGG has actually been quite rewarding up until recent times lol.
Anything more would just be speculation on my part and there's other threads for that :P
Thanks very much for your reply.
What you said here about having one game in the end, is essentially very true, that was the plan.
On the other hand, it doesn't show the full picture.
I believe it is worth mentioning that PoE2, since it's reveal was meant to be very different game then PoE1 (all the reworks, overhauls).
I have recently rewatched a lot of footage from Exilecon 2019. Unfortunately haven't taken timestamps of very interesting developer comment. That's my fault as it for sure helped me to express myself in much more clear. Well, probably will go back to it at some point in the future. I am certain discussion like that will go on for a long time.
Goin back to the topic, PoE2 was meant to be very different game than PoE1 from the start.
So, my opinion in regards to recent of development plans, having "split", keeping PoE1 alive:
- If somebody is upset because they won't be able to play PoE1 campaign within PoE2 game, then I absolutely accept and agree with that. If that was biggest selling point of PoE2 for somebody, then I completely understand those people discontent.
- If somebody is upset because they won't be able to use their old Standard PoE1 characters and items in PoE 2 (no matter how butchered they would be by conversion), then I get it too, but only partially. Why only partially? Because I believe that entire conversion idea was too ambitious and a bit unrealistic in the first place. Even developers, kind of prepared player, that their existing characters might by ruined anyway with release of PoE2. The relevant quote is on 2019 website in section "And Much More":
http://web.archive.org/web/20191116004116/https://www.pathofexile.com/exilecon/one
So, yes, I agree those 2 points above can make people unhappy. Still I do not believe that it is valid reason to accuse developer of any kind of lying or intentionally misleading.
On the other hand:
- If somebody is unhappy because PoE2 somehow changed in a very major way between Exilecons 2019 and 2023 (except 2 points above), then I simply CANNOT agree. In my opinion PoE2 as presented is very, very true in the philosophy, design goals, content (except PoE1 campaign) to what has been show 4 years earlier. Again, I really regret not taking relevant timestamps.
I encourage everyone to rewatch (and of course listen to) Exilecon 2019 footage, especially dev panels and streamer playthroughs with dev comments. There is a lot of interesting information here that somebody might have missed. This information might change some ones perception of how event unfolded and significance of them. I believe devs put a lot of effort into that event and it is also evident for some of them such public appearance was difficult and stressful experience. Even just out of respect and appreciation it is worth to check that footage.
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Posted byReid777on Aug 3, 2023, 4:00:16 PM
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This unfortunate problem, that people focused just on one bit of the information, instead of digesting whole.
It seems that focusing on this one headline people got absolute misconception what PoE2 was and still is meant to be.
It looks like people though that they will be able to still play PoE1 as was, within PoE2 ecosystem, somehow. That was never in the books.
It was advertised and then further explained that, yes 2 separate campaigns will lead to the same end game. At the same time it has been highlighted (yes Exilecon 2019) that basically every core game system will be reworked. In practice it meant that PoE1, at least on the systems level, would be no more.
I never advocated that we knew about "the split" in 2019.
What I advocate is that we knew that PoE2 will be very different game from PoE1.
We also knew that PoE2 will replace PoE1.
I am not concerned about it being 2 games, had you read my post, I said I was excited about it.
Please provide official documentation (like I did) from GGG that this was going to be 2 games and that PoE2 is taking over for PoE1. Preferably before the 2023 Exilecon. Otherwise, you are just speculating.
EDIT: Hindsight is always 20/20
I was replying generally to the first part of your post.
I would refer you first to the old PoE2 website (2019), which showcases many fundamental and radical changes to core game system. He highlight here were Skills system, Itemisation, Passive tree and then other core game systems (plural here). Those changes would have monumental impact to the game.
http://web.archive.org/web/20191116004116/https://www.pathofexile.com/exilecon/one
Then you can see in one of the first panel 2019, coveting Ascendancies, the clear talk about all old ascendancies are goint to be worked keeping mostly name and theme. In the same panel they mentioned difficult (or complex) conversion of items.
I am sorry, kind of failed here, that I do not have a timestamp.
Then we have developer comments like, almost direct quotes:
"If we call it PoE2, everything has to look, feel and play differently. It has to proper sequel."
"We want to bring back difficulty, to have challenge."
"For a long time we wanted to appeal to wider audience"
Sorry, no timestamps, but they are there, and many more in similar vein.
If those do not give you a clear picture that PoE2 was meant to be very different game than PoE1, then I am not sure what actually would.
I am happy that you exited about 2 game, so am I.
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Posted byReid777on Aug 3, 2023, 4:13:33 PM
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short answer:
ggg went overboard with game features and power creep and slowly reverting that in a process of going from poe 1 to 2 would have been a neverending shitstorm, bad publicity and reddit would be burned down and emptied (not neccessarily a bad thing).
having 2 games is supposed to be the easier way out of the situation.
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
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Posted byvioon Aug 3, 2023, 4:14:12 PMAlpha Member
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why didn't ggg invite new streamers who actually play poe?
I'd like to know this as well, The panel was pretty one-tone for me and not representative of the playersbase imo.
The games divided but the people up on stage are definitely Unified from what i could stomach to watch after chris's announcement.
Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony on Aug 3, 2023, 4:36:34 PM
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Posted bySilentSymphonyon Aug 3, 2023, 4:31:03 PM
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The games divided but the people up on stage are definitely Unified from what i could stomach to watch after chris's announcement.
i think it's been the order of announcements which has been off.
the way i would have choreographed it:
- first announce all the changes by people who non english speakers or the automated google translater can understand
- explain the reason for every change and what logic led to it's implementation
- let people wonder how all those reasonable changes fit into poe 1
- announce that the changes are too huge for poe 1
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill! Last edited by vio on Aug 3, 2023, 4:46:19 PM
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Posted byvioon Aug 3, 2023, 4:45:49 PMAlpha Member
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Thanks for the rant, mate :)
I can totally relate to what you're saying with regards to further financially supporting the game - the disillusionment is real, at least for the moment. But let's not forget that the game will continue to be here for a few more years (maybe even longer), so there's still loads of fun to be had with the game we've got right now (if you / we choose to keep playing).
Hah, happy to rant anytime given my current state of mind :p
There may be a year or two left in the tank. And my son does like playing this game with me. I think that's the only thing holding me back at this point. It's something we do together. I hate that the game has that leverage and want to shift to something else with him to remove it. But it's there. Maybe I'll just F2P it into the sunset.
SSF feels like the best choice to burn server resources but add nothing to the in-game economy/engagement. Maybe that's the way? :)
You go for it! Really amazing that you share your PoE experience with your son. I'm sure you'll find something else you both enjoy in case you decide against F2Ping into the sunset. Whatever the case may be, best of luck to both of you!!
Last edited by eperon on Aug 4, 2023, 3:30:41 AM
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Posted byeperonon Aug 4, 2023, 3:30:18 AM
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You go for it! Really amazing that you share your PoE experience with your son. I'm sure you'll find something else you both enjoy in case you decide against F2Ping into the sunset. Whatever the case may be, best of luck to both of you!!
Thanks! And same to you. My son seems pretty attached to this game, and his cousin as well; so I don't know if I'll be able to peel off.
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Posted byNubatronon Aug 4, 2023, 8:41:50 AM
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You go for it! Really amazing that you share your PoE experience with your son. I'm sure you'll find something else you both enjoy in case you decide against F2Ping into the sunset. Whatever the case may be, best of luck to both of you!!
Thanks! And same to you. My son seems pretty attached to this game, and his cousin as well; so I don't know if I'll be able to peel off.
play a game. you payed more then enough to do that :)
i still will play poe. since we dont have better game in market. i just will not open my wallet anymore. no matter what .
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Posted byanti4z500on Aug 4, 2023, 8:58:45 AM
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You go for it! Really amazing that you share your PoE experience with your son. I'm sure you'll find something else you both enjoy in case you decide against F2Ping into the sunset. Whatever the case may be, best of luck to both of you!!
Thanks! And same to you. My son seems pretty attached to this game, and his cousin as well; so I don't know if I'll be able to peel off.
play a game. you payed more then enough to do that :)
i still will play poe. since we dont have better game in market. i just will not open my wallet anymore. no matter what .
+1
I am not Anti-Social, I am just selective on whom I wish to be social with.
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Posted byAhewazon Aug 4, 2023, 9:58:02 AM
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You go for it! Really amazing that you share your PoE experience with your son. I'm sure you'll find something else you both enjoy in case you decide against F2Ping into the sunset. Whatever the case may be, best of luck to both of you!!
Thanks! And same to you. My son seems pretty attached to this game, and his cousin as well; so I don't know if I'll be able to peel off.
play a game. you payed more then enough to do that :)
i still will play poe. since we dont have better game in market. i just will not open my wallet anymore. no matter what .
Erhhhhh... you just bought a haunting shade support pack? xD
It will convert your forum titles into decorative square badges that use the space next to your forum posts more economically so that you can show off an unlimited number of them at any one time. - GGG, 2018 (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3573673)
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Posted byJerleon Aug 4, 2023, 11:12:14 AM
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