General Discussion - Help me, I was banned on the tft and I don't understand what happened. - Forum

" trixxar wrote: " alhazred70 wrote: I would LOVE to know what the "optimal economic meta" players would consider acceptable FORMS of "friction" that accomplish at least the same amount of friction as current. GGG has called the current ease of availability of trade items "a crisis for the games health" (or words to that effect) multiple times... SO trade can't get less "frictiony" from their standpoint. So what would you like to see?. Really at this point I would settle on near any system that doesn't use annoyance as a game mechanic. There are a variety of ways to make the friction mechanical or a cost/benefit analysis where you cant be sloppy and throw 500 items in a trade tab with no cost to you. -Add significant cost to list items and have the listing last something like 6 hrs to 48 hrs only. -Limit things so that items can be traded/sold from account to account only once, and then put a hard limit on trades per account. -Improve crafting and ability to find specific build-enabling uniques without trade to make trade not the absolute best and fastest way to gear up I want the friction to be a clear, relevant mechanic that feels like I am playing a game, not awkwardly tabbed out spamming messages like Im working in a telemarketing company. I dont really like trade and I dont like playing a trade simulator, but I think making trade intentionally not fun is probably the worst approach you could take. You could also make people type out long boring sentences before any trades. That would improve friction. Doesnt make for a fun game. These are solid ideas, even arguably adding some friction (listing limits, costs). Personally I've only ever argued in these trade threads against things I see as making "shopping" easier which automatically makes the organic game-play loop worse than it already is because rewards are tuned for CuteDog to have a couple dopamine hits per night, which means a normal player is lucky to find something interesting once a week. The main issue is that the more effortless you make something in any game, the more people will use it. Even just making it nicer means more items get listed. Personally I think Last Epoch has good compromises on paper. "only 10% of players care about melee" - Aesop's Fox if he was a GGG dev "when you die in this game, typically you're getting one shot, you're dieing in one frame; almost always" -Ben_	Posted by alhazred70 on Jul 8, 2023, 4:16:28 AM Quote this Post
While I truly dislike the idea of TFT, their existence is just a result of GGG's trading politics. Everything that is wrong with TFT can and should be blamed on GGG. In short: GGG do not want the player to have easy access to certain things in the game. That is clear as day; The 8 mods maps you want, the compasses you want, the invitations you want or whatever. But, if you're willing to spend time and effort on trade, the option is there; balanced around that time and effort. TFT removes this. What are they (GGG) doing about it? Nothing. So to have a trade discussion, we just have to ask one simple question before we start: Are you OK with the 'fact' that certain things are meant to be rare, and more or less unobtainable in great numbers, i.e. not having instant access to everything you want? If you're OK with that, a discussion around changes and improvements to trade can be a productive discussion, where limitations and restrictions are an important part of that discussion. If you're not OK with that and believe that if you have the cash, you should have the access without effort, I struggle to see a middle ground between you and GGG. Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you. Last edited by Phrazz on Jul 8, 2023, 7:07:35 AM	Posted by Phrazz on Jul 8, 2023, 7:04:52 AM Quote this Post
To everyone else, but alhazred: When you are faced with de-contextualization, nit picking, avoidance of self evident truths, and an agenda the first thing you have to do is go back to the start. This was the original comment: Spoiler " MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: Things that are going to happen now: A. People are going to tell you TFT has no affiliation with GGG. It's not a gotcha moment. Ignore it. B. People are going to tell you TFT is a 'private/public' group and they can ban whomever for whatever reason, completely ignoring the need for a place such as TFT (as toxic as that place is). C. TFT goons are going to come into this post to bait, harass, thought police, and do anything in their power to trigger admins into closing the thread. So... what can you do? Nothing. GGG sees the problem and answers with (1). TFT sees you posting and answers with (1,2, and 3). Essentially now you are out of the economy. Good luck! Section 1 Spoiler " alhazred70 wrote: Its so sad that people think this is true. As if you need to make mirror items, high end crafts and bulk buy things that were never intended or accounted for in the design of the game to be used in such abundance. The game exists perfectly fine without any extra trade, or even any trade at all if you know why you play games. You can literally do all content in SSF, you can literally participate completely with only normal trade tools if you're not masochistic enough for trade or have too little free time (which hey thats probably almost everyone in the case of mega thirsty POE right?). You can trade in so many organic ways that don't trivialize the game nearly as much, or you can go full third party (but no TFT) and trivialize the game some percent harder. Or ofc you can TFT and add some more trivial on top of your trivial. Some people hyper focus on the outcome of playing the SC trade Meta-game they turn the game into this honestly kinda perverse "game pr0n compilation" meta of play like Empy or CuteDog etc. where only the most tiny aspect of the games design matters, and then because they've pulled a Jedi mind trick on themselves they decide that not being a part of some discord ruins the game for them. What a fragile and powerless state to voluntarily subject yourself to. I can't imagine turning gameplay (a journey of taking on obstacles) into an outcome binary that only cares about 1/millionth of the available content. But hey if thats what you enjoy. I guess have fun for a couple days per league. But please stop pretending you're objectively required to obviate and trivialize all content by 1000x instead of just 999x before "you can participate in the economy". Its just silly hyperbole trying to "shame" GGG into doing something about it, and no one actually believes it, not even the people who keep pretending its true.. Spoiler " MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: How did you go from not being true to trivializing the game? The truth is anyone kicked out of TFT is at a loss and GGG needs to finish what they started when they introduced the itemization of harvest. They thought that was going to be the end of TFT, but it wasn't. There are still a lot of things that need to be addressed. Everyone in TFT must pay the piper. Walk the walk. Talk the talk. Or, get banned. If OP truly had 2 accounts inside TFT and they banned him for that. Well there you go. Now you know. Is that a reason to gimp his ability to trade? should that be at TFT's discretion given their absolutely horrible track record with abuse of power? 2 accounts = mean person? All of this TFT generated drama will only stop when GGG finally takes action. A) If they end up supporting TFT, people are just going to RMT discord accounts and make new poe accounts until they are finally in. B) If they end up removing API access / banning some of the shady characters and removing mirrored items and mirrored originals tainted by RMT then they have to deal with a waco-texas style feud and watch them weaponize their user base against the game it self (and not Belton for a change). Don't get me wrong... GGG is banning top brass from TFT. Quickpathh and Replyy come to mind. That's like 1/3 of TFT's mirror shop right there directly tied with RTM. Section 2 Spoiler " MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: > How did you go from not being true to trivializing the game? " alhazred70 wrote: Pretty simple really: I'm saying its not true that not being on TFT removes you from the economy; Which as a statement implies some very significant disadvantage in playing the game. Most of the time in these discussions over the years, this hyperbole goes hand in hand with the idea that the most optimal meta (in this case TFT) is required to play the game. This is often outright claimed. In this case its only implied. You can trivialize the game though in all modes with and without economic pvp, with or without TFT. So is the implication reasonable? Is it even true at all? No. There are people doing high end crafting without TFT, some of those people are outright flipping off TFT while they actively participate in the economy they're supposedly not in. So even if we assume that statement only meant "you're removed from the very specific economy on TFT" and it didn't at all imply any larger context; its still just wrong. " MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: > I'm not reinventing the wheel here this is how it works in real life. It's only arbitrarily inconvenient in PoE, because reasons. " alhazred70 wrote: Indeed those reasons are right here if you're actually interested: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870 " MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: >Other games seam to have pulled it off nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9gkasD1Rn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x26T47NTiCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgSENw3E-co " alhazred70 wrote: So basically you want much less friction (aka near effortless low risk trading that is easier to automate and dominate with bots (admittedly AI is very quickly going to make every form of trade in every game automated by proxy) and the incumbent worsening of rewards because if you make items easier to buy and sell you also must lower the drop rates of items that are supposed to be rare and powerful. AKA you turn possibly the most thirsty repetition heavy western made game in existence even more sweaty and thirsty for everyones time... Unless you're a Path of Shopping player... in which case the game just ends on day 5 instead of day 7 after you have arbitraged your way to a MB or whatever your goal was. Economy guys like Grimro are bored in 12 or 14 days of every league, and he has videos to make, his spreadsheets; and he actually farms maps instead of the much more successful strategy of flipping, why does the game need less friction? If most SC trade players are done in a couple weeks why on earth does anyone need easier trade? I mean give it a year or two and you'll probably have what you're wanting from 3rd party AI tools. Then it gets interesting. Maybe GGG will wake up and realize they need bound items and separate modes for people who just want to play a well designed game and don't want to have to hit the fucking lottery to drop a 1 chaos shield by playing the damn game instead of economic PvP. To everyone, but alhazred: As soon as you do that tedious work. You need to read your side to remember what was the entire context. See if there was any miscommunication, fallacies or lies. My original comment is a follow up the op's post it self. Literally stating the usual / expected outcomes for each party involved (GGG, TFT, OP) and how they usually respond and react to these types of threads. GGG usually says it's outside of their company bondaries, TFT doesn't care at all, OP suffers the penalty of being excluded out of the economy. My follow-up comment further drives the point that I'm talking about the three parties, but this time expanding on what GGG could do to stop this sort of foul behavior from groups like TFT. Now I haven't yet responded to alhazred, because I think it's important to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. If I simply reply to every single de-contextualized comment eventually I will find myself defending a position that's not my original position and/or it's impossible to defend. This happens all the time in debate, but I digress. Let's get back to the topic. --- Now, I'm replying to you alhazred: To my original comment your first reply is riddled with disdain against trading in path of exile and total self identification with SSF / ruthless. So, why does a Solo Self Found / Ruthless aficionado feel the need to tell the rest of us (competitive trade league players) that our way of playing the game is less than? You don't see me going into a SSF / R post and saying "You see! this is why you need to trade for items". Of course not, that would be nonsensical. Not only I would fail to convert a SSF / R player into a competitive trade league players, but I wouldn't be able to communicate at all. I will just be shouting words at the wind. Then I ask "How did you go from not being true to trivializing the game?" His answer? I'm just being hyperbolic. Really? Is it really hyperbole? Compare two average players one with tools like the ones provided by TFT and one without. Which competitive trade league player is going to have an edge over the other? It's like comparing a guy with a stone axe with a guy with a chain saw and a full tank and they are both trying to speedrun one tree. The comment goes on with a complete melting pot of dubious food. Literally mixing all 'game modes' (league mechanics) with crafting and high end crafting. I think there is no point in replying to that. How could I? It would take a lot of time for me to cover everything. So where is the meat in this comment? The meat is implied. He basically stated that Belton is out of TFT and he is doing high end crafting and because he managed to do it that is proof that ALL players are able to excel and trivialize the game without TFT. 🤣 As if Belton did it alone... As if Belton didn't have an army supplying him currency... As if he's not trying to recoup the currency people entrusted in him (he is literally at a loss right now and only time and hard data will tell if they profit from this)... As if that's the average experience for everyone. The next comment I made was to provide 3 examples of player driven economy games with healthy markets. Because if the argument is that it's impossible for us to have this, then just by showing 3 examples from 3 other games should be enough for people to just acquiesce and acknowledge a self evident truth. ... and His reply to it? a post by Chris. I honestly don't care. You can rationalize bots all you want. You can call it arbitrage. You can call it giving liquidity to the market. You can call it a pink unicorn for all I care. There is ZERO arguments for it. None. Why? Because you need to anonymously pay a hacking group for the privileged of a subscription service to a bot. ALL ARGUMENTS DIE HERE. You literally circumvent laws and break ToS to have access to 'providing liquidity to the game' or just 'giving a good service to people' or 'arbitrage'. Non sense. Then you ban in waves as to not up set the market? WHAT! and the waves are far apart? WHAT! and when you finally ban bots inflation goes down? WHAT! Non sense. The next comment boils down to "you want much less friction (aka near effortless low risk trading that is easier to automate and dominate with bots)". Facepalm. Somebody is unaware of how concepts and formulas in economics draw inspiration from fluid dynamics. Nobody wants friction when money (as in in-game currency) is involved. NOBODY. What's next? Hunger games in the supermarket? --- To anyone, but alhaz... if you ever have to make an argument in an area outside your expertice you can google or at the very least make a simple chat-gpt prompt. For example: Spoiler In economics, several concepts deal with removing friction or reducing inefficiencies in various economic processes. Here are some key concepts: Free trade: The idea of removing barriers, such as tariffs and quotas, to facilitate the exchange of goods and services between countries, allowing for greater efficiency and specialization. Deregulation: The process of reducing or eliminating government regulations and restrictions on industries and markets, aiming to promote competition and remove unnecessary burdens on businesses. Market efficiency: The concept that markets should operate smoothly and quickly incorporate all relevant information into prices, without unnecessary frictions or distortions. Electronic payments and digital currencies: The shift from physical cash and traditional banking systems to electronic payments and cryptocurrencies, aiming to reduce transaction costs, increase convenience, and remove geographic barriers. Competition policy: The framework of laws and regulations designed to promote competition and prevent anti-competitive behavior, such as monopolies and price-fixing, which can create frictions in markets. Privatization: The transfer of state-owned enterprises or assets to private ownership, often done to introduce competition, improve efficiency, and reduce bureaucratic frictions. Streamlining bureaucracy: The process of simplifying administrative procedures and reducing red tape to make it easier for individuals and businesses to interact with government agencies and access services. Infrastructure development: Investing in and improving physical infrastructure, such as transportation networks, telecommunications, and energy systems, to facilitate the movement of goods, services, and information, reducing frictions in economic activities. These concepts aim to minimize inefficiencies, barriers, and unnecessary frictions in economic systems, promoting greater efficiency, productivity, and overall welfare. I'm not even going to read it and I don't care if chat-gpt made any errors. The point is to research before making wild claims. --- As for bots and AI... programming is a skill. A skill that I bet not many people that play this game have. Further more, the knowledge and experience required to make a bot with AI to do the things you are saying is even more niche. So much that it stops being a player problem and becomes a GGG problem and they will be able to detect and ban those bots. People will submit copies of the bots to GGG for forensic analysis. GGG will issue bans and the problem will continue until it's just too expensive and time consuming to develop a bot. THAT'S HOW YOU FIX the hypothetical issue. Until then, it makes no sense to frivolous introduce 'friction', because that only exacerbates the problems and the disparities between the haves (bot) and the have-nots.	Posted by MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam on Jul 8, 2023, 7:19:48 AM Quote this Post
" MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: things that are going to happen now: 1. People are going to tell you TFT has no affiliation with GGG. It's not a gotcha moment. Ignore it. 2. People are going to tell you TFT is a 'private/public' group and they can ban whomever for whatever reason, completely ignoring the need for a place such as TFT (as toxic as that place is). 3. TFT goons are going to come into this post to bait, harrass, thought police, and do anything in their power to trigger admins into closing the thread. So... what can you do? Nothing. GGG sees the problem and answers with (1). TFT sees you posting and answers with (1,2, and 3). Essentially now you are out of the economy. Good luck! Lmfao they should sticky this at the top of general discussion under the tag of like "TFT Bans" Also agreed with Phrazz, if trade friction is intended to stop players from doing what TFT does GGG are long past when they could ignore it and they needed to hard code some rules instead of just letting it happen while it slowly distorts the playerbase's expectations. Its on GGG to set where they want the parameters to lie. Personally I think TFT is a blight on the game and has done immeasurable damage, which is ironic as I play on HC and never have to interact with them in any way :p Last edited by Draegnarrr on Jul 8, 2023, 7:30:25 AM	Posted by Draegnarrr on Jul 8, 2023, 7:26:25 AM Quote this Post
" trixxar wrote: Really at this point I would settle on near any system that doesn't use annoyance as a game mechanic. There are a variety of ways to make the friction mechanical or a cost/benefit analysis where you cant be sloppy and throw 500 items in a trade tab with no cost to you. -Add significant cost to list items and have the listing last something like 6 hrs to 48 hrs only. -Limit things so that items can be traded/sold from account to account only once, and then put a hard limit on trades per account. -Improve crafting and ability to find specific build-enabling uniques without trade to make trade not the absolute best and fastest way to gear up I want the friction to be a clear, relevant mechanic that feels like I am playing a game, not awkwardly tabbed out spamming messages like Im working in a telemarketing company. I dont really like trade and I dont like playing a trade simulator, but I think making trade intentionally not fun is probably the worst approach you could take. You could also make people type out long boring sentences before any trades. That would improve friction. Doesnt make for a fun game. Our pains and tribulations with trading and TFT are not mere hyperbole or exaggeration. They are self evident truths that are further thrusted onto our faces by the fact that other player driven economies have solutions in place that work! The elephant in the room is that Blizzard tainted the entire concept with their AH (with their foul RMAH). 🤢🤮 Just saying it makes me want to puke... but that's not to say that there is no way to provide the tools we need. Specially when you see the 3 examples I gave earlier in action. How can GGG implement this? Idk and honestly idc. I'll be happy with anything other than the status quou of having to abide by a self righteous, power tripping, megalomaniac who doesn't even play the game and his entire way of making money is just by proving an escrow service. It would take literally minutes for GGG to provide an escrow NPC or bench. Just a place you can place your item. Wait for the conditions of trade to be fulfilled and then give the payment to the seller and the item to the buyer. SIMPLE. Once they have that rudimentary system is just a question of building up. THIS system is a great introduction to programming. So if you guys (GGG) introduced Regex as a gateway drug into coding... mind as well also introduce conditional statements and logic. Even in a rudimentary form they will be invaluable to players because they will be learning tools for LIFE. One of the devs stated he loved factorio. You can go the factorio route or the magnum opus route and make the entire concept of an escrow into a mini-game. Or avoid yourselves the cost of development and give us bubbles we can link to make conditionals. Most trades are not complex at all just constrained by the small trade window. So you could implement the escrow system in an extremely rudimentary form... Just a trade window with infinite space and a way to automatically calculate how much currency is in the window (15,000 chaos + 25 mirros + 300 exalts). You guys don't even have to tell me what the total price is. I can just copy paste that into a spreadsheet or write it down. Last edited by MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam on Jul 8, 2023, 7:49:16 AM	Posted by MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam on Jul 8, 2023, 7:37:59 AM Quote this Post
" alhazred70 wrote: ... I mean give it a year or two and you'll probably have what you're wanting from 3rd party AI tools. Then it gets interesting. Maybe GGG will wake up and realize they need bound items and separate modes for people who just want to play a well designed game and don't want to have to hit the fucking lottery to drop a 1 chaos shield by playing the damn game instead of economic PvP. Drop rate adjusted SSF. Count me in. Mirrors drop like Divines now. Divines and Exalts like Chaos orbs. And Mageblood drops like that Karui amulet. THATS well balanced for a fun SSF experience. Last edited by navigator4223 on Jul 8, 2023, 2:04:58 PM	Posted by navigator4223 on Jul 8, 2023, 2:04:15 PM Quote this Post
" navigator4223 wrote: " alhazred70 wrote: ... I mean give it a year or two and you'll probably have what you're wanting from 3rd party AI tools. Then it gets interesting. Maybe GGG will wake up and realize they need bound items and separate modes for people who just want to play a well designed game and don't want to have to hit the fucking lottery to drop a 1 chaos shield by playing the damn game instead of economic PvP. Drop rate adjusted SSF. Count me in. Mirrors drop like Divines now. Divines and Exalts like Chaos orbs. And Mageblood drops like that Karui amulet. THATS well balanced for a fun SSF experience. Just add in (voided) and have at it. Personally got this game because its multiplayer before SSF existed. Innocence forgives you Last edited by SilentSymphony on Jul 8, 2023, 6:17:56 PM	Posted by SilentSymphony on Jul 8, 2023, 6:17:24 PM Quote this Post
" SilentSymphony wrote: " navigator4223 wrote: " alhazred70 wrote: ... I mean give it a year or two and you'll probably have what you're wanting from 3rd party AI tools. Then it gets interesting. Maybe GGG will wake up and realize they need bound items and separate modes for people who just want to play a well designed game and don't want to have to hit the fucking lottery to drop a 1 chaos shield by playing the damn game instead of economic PvP. Drop rate adjusted SSF. Count me in. Mirrors drop like Divines now. Divines and Exalts like Chaos orbs. And Mageblood drops like that Karui amulet. THATS well balanced for a fun SSF experience. Just add in (voided) and have at it. Personally got this game because its multiplayer before SSF existed. I like the mixed aspect a lot. Just wish there was an auction house. With the ultra low drop rates of currency, SSF in its current state is not an option for me.	Posted by navigator4223 on Jul 8, 2023, 7:09:59 PM Quote this Post
" MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: How can GGG implement this? Idk and honestly idc. I'll be happy with anything other than the status quou I agree with everything you said but quoting this for emphasis. No one expects perfection. All I am really hoping for is that they just try.	Posted by trixxar on Jul 9, 2023, 2:06:35 AM Quote this Post
" MaturinGuardianOfTheBeam wrote: things that are going to happen now: 1. People are going to tell you TFT has no affiliation with GGG. It's not a gotcha moment. Ignore it. 2. People are going to tell you TFT is a 'private/public' group and they can ban whomever for whatever reason, completely ignoring the need for a place such as TFT (as toxic as that place is). 3. TFT goons are going to come into this post to bait, harrass, thought police, and do anything in their power to trigger admins into closing the thread. So... what can you do? Nothing. GGG sees the problem and answers with (1). TFT sees you posting and answers with (1,2, and 3). Essentially now you are out of the economy. Good luck! Well, this guy is definitely an expert in getting banned there. and probably on this forum too. OP - Stop using discord for poe.	Posted by Fapmobile on Jul 9, 2023, 5:07:16 AM Quote this Post