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In this whole balance, the player should not be penalized for, for example, choosing a skill that is slower, worse in the form of positioning, e.g. sunder. Of course, the difference between, for example, righteous fire and sunder will always be felt with the first skill, you can be on the move all the time and you can deal damage, and the second skill will not. you have to stop and deal damage for a while and expose yourself to various damage. With such a high game speed and also various effects on the ground and various things that follow you with autotargeting, skills like sunder are very very impractical and uninteresting, boring and lacking in fun and power. In an ordinary commercial league, of course, it is possible to make an end game with sunder, e.g. Maven, I don't know, maybe with the right investment Uber Maven, but it still won't change the fact that mechanically this skill, like many others, does not match the speed and gameplay in general in this game
You are correct here; some skills are mechanically better than others. But the question here is; how do GGG fix this without reworking their whole game from the ground up?
In an RNG based environment, speed will always be key. The more dices you throw in an hour, the more sixes you will get. Dedicated players will therefore bake as much speed as they can into their build. And no matter how much GGG balance their skills, some skills will always be mechanically superior to others. It's inevitable.
No, that does not mean that GGG should strive towards better skill balance. But they should also strive towards making different skills play and feel different. One step they could/should do, is to make attack speed and attack time separate. Currently, if you have 1 APS, your attack is slow as hell. It doesn't have to be; the attack time of your skill could be made very quick, even though the time between attacks would still be ~1 second.
Another obvious way to make skills more inline with eachother, but at the same time make playstyles different, is to grant more defensive options to slower builds. 2-handed nodes on the tree could/should have more defensive stats to make them 2-handed only (uninteresting for other builds). Why this hasn't been done years ago, is beyond me.
I like the potential speed of PoE. I find it fun. And even though slower builds are at a disadvantage, they are possible. It doesn't take that much tweaking for them to be more viable. But as Chris did say directly; "a fast build is a better build". They WANT speed scaling to be an integral part of build progression.
To be honest with the current speed of the game it will be hard to balance skills like righteous fire and sunder in any way, if they don't want to change the speed then maybe they should remove those unnecessary skills and add more which mechanically will be more suited to the current gameplay. Personally, I'm in favor of changes related to speed, the gameplay itself with less junk mobs and the speed of the game, that alone would reduce the gap between these skills, and then thinking about how to spice up a skill like sunder, e.g. by adding mechanics built into the skill that will help him survive a bit. Extra life regeneration when staying in place for a long time or invulnerability to the effects of damage over time. They should be doing and testing such things a long time ago, but I think they are completely absorbed in working on PoE 2. I must admit that I'm very curious about what it will look like when PoE 2 comes out
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Posted bymentos1308on Jul 23, 2023, 9:19:35 AM
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And now I'm bored with the current gameplay totally bored
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Posted bymentos1308on Jul 23, 2023, 9:24:49 AM
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One step they could/should do, is to make attack speed and attack time separate. Currently, if you have 1 APS, your attack is slow as hell. It doesn't have to be; the attack time of your skill could be made very quick, even though the time between attacks would still be ~1 second.
I'd be really interested to see how this kind of complication to attack-time curves worked out in POE. Makes me think of the guns in Pillars of Eternity, where the very short attack time and very long recovery time lead to a bunch of new tactical concerns (not all of which would be relevant here of course, but still).
Plus, the way it is now - along with the feet-glued-to-the-ground-while-attacking thing - helps leads to some silly behaviour like the classic "monster walking away extremely slowly is entirely safe".
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Posted byGusTheCrocodileon Jul 23, 2023, 9:31:18 AM
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Won't happen.
Former player moderator, valued poster, and early-adopter responsible for The Blood Dance.
GGG has forgotten where they came from. As a result, I no longer support the deceitful, corporate Tencent slave sellouts running this game.
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Posted byMonopolyLegendon Jul 23, 2023, 10:11:39 AMAlpha Member
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Personally, I'm in favor of changes related to speed
I am too, but only a notch. They should absolutely not reduce it to Diablo levels of speed. PoE IS and SHOULD be a fast paced game. But the crazy side of things (read lab/heist farmers and ridiculous map farmers) should be reduced a notch.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Posted byPhrazzon Jul 23, 2023, 11:08:08 AM
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Personally, I'm in favor of changes related to speed
I am too, but only a notch. They should absolutely not reduce it to Diablo levels of speed. PoE IS and SHOULD be a fast paced game. But the crazy side of things (read lab/heist farmers and ridiculous map farmers) should be reduced a notch.
I also don't want to completely reduce this speed to the ground, it has to be done with feeling and common sense
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Posted bymentos1308on Jul 23, 2023, 11:14:36 AM
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In an RNG based environment, speed will always be key. The more dices you throw in an hour, the more sixes you will get.
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Wouldn't it be interesting if that wasn't the case? If there was an algorithm or system that regulated drop rarity with drop quantity, such that the more drops you generated the less valuable they were? Speed helps up to a point, but after that point it contributes less and less to currency generation, to the point that going faster past a second given point is effectively meaningless to wealth/hour rates.
Wouldn't it be truly interesting if speed really was a choice, and not a soft mandate for getting anywhere in the game? If you wanted to rush around at seventy times normal character speed exploding everything in single frames because that's where your dopamine lives, you can do it - but it wouldn't give you an overwhelming advantage against players that don't follow that creed anymore.
You can generate a thousand times the loot of a "slow" player, but that loot will still be roughly as valuable as the slow player's stuff. You just get a thousand times the chaff and a thousand percent less value-per-drop.
I wonder what a system like that would do for farming strategies and Religion of Zoom "go fast or quit the game" mentalities.
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Posted by1453Ron Jul 23, 2023, 12:12:27 PMOn Probation
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In an RNG based environment, speed will always be key. The more dices you throw in an hour, the more sixes you will get.
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Wouldn't it be interesting if that wasn't the case? If there was an algorithm or system that regulated drop rarity with drop quantity, such that the more drops you generated the less valuable they were? Speed helps up to a point, but after that point it contributes less and less to currency generation, to the point that going faster past a second given point is effectively meaningless to wealth/hour rates.
Wouldn't it be truly interesting if speed really was a choice, and not a soft mandate for getting anywhere in the game? If you wanted to rush around at seventy times normal character speed exploding everything in single frames because that's where your dopamine lives, you can do it - but it wouldn't give you an overwhelming advantage against players that don't follow that creed anymore.
You can generate a thousand times the loot of a "slow" player, but that loot will still be roughly as valuable as the slow player's stuff. You just get a thousand times the chaff and a thousand percent less value-per-drop.
I wonder what a system like that would do for farming strategies and Religion of Zoom "go fast or quit the game" mentalities.
It just sounds like you want to punish people who play the game more than you do.
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Posted byimanubcakeon Jul 23, 2023, 12:56:32 PM
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A lot of Religion of Zoom people think so. "You're just trying to drag everybody down to your lame bad stupid level!"
Nah.
I want the game to do a better job of respecting my time. Path of Exile is already one of the lowest-scoring games in all of gaming for respecting the players' time. It makes so much demand of its players' time that I'm amazed any adult with a full-time job can keep up. if you don't put in a bare absolute bottom-ass minimum of twenty hours a week per league, you get absolutely nowhere and may as well not have even bothered playing.
The game pushes people into excessive, unfun levels of clearspeed because that's the only way to get it to respect your time outside of Hail Mary lucky drops. It CAN do a better job of this, it SHOULD do a better job of this, and we should not ALLOW it to continue to be this thoroughly awful at abusing players' time investment. Somebody who can only play five or ten hours a week tops because they have a job and a family and obligations other than signing their soul over to Chris Wilson should not be left floundering with nothing just because they can't meet this game's absurd participation requirements.
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Posted by1453Ron Jul 23, 2023, 2:26:40 PMOn Probation
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Wouldn't it be interesting if that wasn't the case? If there was an algorithm or system that regulated drop rarity with drop quantity, such that the more drops you generated the less valuable they were? Speed helps up to a point, but after that point it contributes less and less to currency generation, to the point that going faster past a second given point is effectively meaningless to wealth/hour rates.
Wouldn't it be truly interesting if speed really was a choice, and not a soft mandate for getting anywhere in the game? If you wanted to rush around at seventy times normal character speed exploding everything in single frames because that's where your dopamine lives, you can do it - but it wouldn't give you an overwhelming advantage against players that don't follow that creed anymore.
You can generate a thousand times the loot of a "slow" player, but that loot will still be roughly as valuable as the slow player's stuff. You just get a thousand times the chaff and a thousand percent less value-per-drop.
I wonder what a system like that would do for farming strategies and Religion of Zoom "go fast or quit the game" mentalities.
[Removed by Support]
@GGG: Seriously?
It seems to me you totally want to get rid of the incentive to go fast, and punish the people that do. PoE will never be that game. You might as well start advocating for shotguns and assault rifles in the game. Going fast has ALWAYS been an incentive - in 'all' ARPGs, all the way back to Diablo 2, where speed-running was huge. You have three main stats to scale in an ARPG: Offense, defense and speed. You want to totally get rid of the latter.
I'm cool with the idea of slowing down the game a notch or two. But to get rid of the incentive? It's just not going to happen, and frankly it would be bad. Even Diablo 4, which is a pretty slow game, has an incentive to be productive and fast, because you drop more loot per hour. It is - and always has been an important incentive in the genre.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you. Last edited by Phrazz on Jul 23, 2023, 3:09:17 PM
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Posted byPhrazzon Jul 23, 2023, 2:58:33 PM
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