Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

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VoxSophiae wrote:

I think these changes are a big step in exactly the wrong direction. Deterministic crafting is good for the game, both because it makes a wider variety of builds viable, and because it increases the speed at which people can, to their relative level of satisfaction, "complete" a build. This, in turn, increases the number of character archetypes that a player gets to play. The fear that players will run out of things to do is unfounded because leagues are only a few months long, there would always be another build to try out, not to mention challenges and the endless grind for currency for yet better gear.

If I were the designer of a game and I had designed a mechanic that was as engaging to the player base as this re-introduction of Harvest, I would call that a win and double down on it by expanding it. My suggestions:

1. Make crafts itemized so as to protect players from getting scammed out of their items. This would also make the purchase of these crafts available to users of the trade site, instead of forcing players to go through TFT to buy and sell crafts.

2. Make the powerful crafts much, much less rare so as to make them available whatsoever to a larger percentage of the player base. Here I could say a lot about the way GGG's mentality seems very focused on catering to themselves and a particular subset of the highest echelon of players, with little regard for people with families, jobs, or other responsibilities, but let it suffice to say that driving down the price of powerful crafts will improve the quality of life of many, MANY more players than it would hurt.

3. Expand the number of tags that crafts can target, so as to enable a yet wider range of viable builds. (Mana, Gem, Elemental etc.) Truly, the more the better here, especially if the fear is that players will run out of things to do, because widening the range of viable builds gives players more opportunities to set goals for themselves, and set out to achieve them through playing the game. More characters also probably means more MTX as players will want different themes for different characters.

I think the fundamental issue with the design team is the fear that players will run out of things to do, when in fact the game has much more of an issue with the things players want to do being unattainable. I personally have as much free time as I choose to allot myself, and I'm about to give up on this game because the things I want to do in the game feel as though they are being rendered, by design, unattainable. If I ever got to complete a build I would step into MTX territory for that character, if I knew I'd be able to do that repeatedly I'd step into supporter territory. If I can't, I'll find another game.

As for the issue that Harvest renders other mechanics obsolete, the solution is to empower those mechanics and make them more engaging, ideally up to the point where they are as engaging as the current high-water mark. On this front GGG actually deserves some kudos for the introduction of atlas passives, which is a great step toward empowering otherwise relatively unrewarding mechanics. I think further steps in this direction would be to the good.

A lot of people have been threatening to withdraw financial support from the game or quit entirely if these changes aren't reversed, if they haven’t done so already. Let me offer the proverbial carrot: GGG, if you reverse course on this and adopt a design philosophy that is more broadly permissive of deterministic crafting so as to respect the time of more of your player base, I and I'm sure many others will spend a lot more money on this game and POE2.

I’m simply not going to go all-in on a game that doesn’t respect my time.

Amen, that's exactly it.I as a player feel cheated, I will not give any dollar to China.

So, this is my Manifesto...

I love videogames.
I don't have best possible life, i would say, so i love to interract myself while playing.

PoE for me was always one of a kind game.
I play almost every genre of videogames, love switching mechanics, styles, i'm considering that as kind of exercise for brain. I've been playing RTS, RPG, FPS, ARPG, races, all sort of stuff. I'm competitive, so i enjoy improving while i play. I love games such SC2, Dark Souls, and some FPS shooters for those being very hard in my consideration. (yes, i know, there is games much harder to understand, for example Entropia Online/Eve/etc.) My average playtime depends, i can play 2h, or 12h a day, if im very excited.

PoE in other hand is complitely different. First time i heard about it was in 2014, had very bad time in life then. Don't remember exaclty what i was doing ingame, but i know now i didnt uderstand absolutely anything what's happening, but still it helped me to calm down and abstract. I started mid-league, played till end, just reached maps, and that was very hard. I didnt have any friends in-game, like i pretty much don't have irl. I'm that kind of solo player, that never seeks party/asks for help, and always plays alone. I've played Breach, Legacy, Bestiary, Incursion, Betrayal, Legion, Blight, Metamorph, Delirium, Harvest, and Ritual Leagues.

I love in PoE that it's so multidimensional game, where you have alot of different mechanics available for use, that if you enjoy playing, you will always find what to do. Virtual world where you can abstract from reality.

Needless to say, that my first League, where i was online from day 1 to last day was Harvest. First League, where i've managed make my first build, not copied. Even it wasn't something "super-meta", or broken/op, it was my build, that i've made, and managed craft items for that build myself.

I love making items myself, aka crafting. It was fun to watch Demigodkings videos back inda days, where he was "metacrafting" 1 item with 150ex, while i do roughly 20-50 in single league, legit maximum with playing every day. Not so fun to understand that crafting items is something beyond you. And not just cause i play not 16h a day every day, but cause im not having friends ingame, and dont play since beta, to have all that knowledge.

I don't care about STD, and hoarding currency in STD, cause the market is not something i enjoy there, and if i want to compete, im centuries behind of top players.

I enjoy, when i pick some build, and it reaches lvl 93 from league start, with no difficulties. I'm not even close to top players after 5 days in league, but if i'm like able to reach maps with no actual suffering I feel like i've reached something, and that's very exciting.

I'm flipping a bit, so i have my like few ex/day profit to get items for my build. I love when i can improve build i've picked, or even complitely change almost everything.
Needless to say, first league when i actually wasnt just suffering killing main boss (shaper, elder, sirus, who was main on that time) all the time was Harvest.

Harvest for me was league, when i first time got over 6m sdps (got around 70m). Of course it's much more fun to make tons of damage, being aurastacker, and playing like complitely different game compared to... heavy strike juggernaut.
So i like fast builds, just cause i enjoy very fast gameplay. I would love play bow builds, but they arent in my zone of reach cause i wasnt playing since beta, and dont know all tricks to make tons of currency to afford that. Even tho i know now, but i cant just sit 16h in front of monitor and flipping items, coz that's absolutely not what i would like to do.

I don't enjoy to hoard currency, i'm usually using one build to fund next build, and my goal is like intstack wander/aurastacker. I would love to make nice expensive build in 3 months, min-max it to league end.

In Harvest i've reached to make very budget aurastacker, and never had so much fun ingame. It was around 100-150ex budget. Very cheap. But i had like motivation to play, play, and play, just to fund new upgrade, and new upgrade.
This league i've managed to earn around 230ex this far. Though i'll try to fund either aurastack or intstack wander, and finally i have feeling that i can reach those, even close to the end of the league. Even might be considering STD just to enjoy that build.
That is considered as raw ex, but since i love crafting items, wanted to do that since watched Demi's metacrafting videos back in days - i'm not selling my Blade Blast league starter items, worth possibly over 100-170ex, just cause i made those myself. I'm very proud of those, even they are mostly not double-influence, and not elevated. I was just now crafting stun avoidance on last jewel for BB+BL build, so i could craft new insane boots for it, probably elevated. That build is first ever, that can kill A8 constantly. I'm very proud of it. I love it.

It's the Goal i want to talk about.
I will never be flipping mirrors. I'll, most likely, never play in party. If i give all my in 1 league, i might earn 200-400ex raw ex, maximum. To earn that 200-400 ex i need Goal = where i'm going to use those, what i'm funding, what build making. I love to push limits, as far im able to.

Oh, i forgot to mention, that is only if there is Harvest crafts, that exist now. I've done around 1k+ atolls this league. I can do em all day long. Just give me an atoll, and i'm ready to go, no even need zana for that. Longest run was 44 maps without harvest. I mean, all this league, i've been doing mostly atolls, 90% of playtime.
I love to find one harvest, craft items, man, i'm so excited every time, can spend like 20 min in one harvest, just to use everything for best outcome.

I dunno if there is alot of players like me, but here i am:
i love harvest as is it

I know, there is like players who can abuse this mechanic, make those notorious 6 T1 items (that i've honestly never seen around) and sell em, but, why wouldn't we be honest:
Those players will always find their way to get 6 T1, 20 mirrors, etc.
I can't blame anyone, but you know, those mirrors and exalts in selling platforms can't appear from nothing (RMT).

So now you are saying, that we move back in time, and highest goal, that i can set for league to myself is "make even single build in 3 months, that will be able somehow kill shaper/maven once for challenge"?

You are saying, that i wont be able to craft gg items for myself (not for sale), and not just dream but actually trying to reach highend content, and making beautiful items for expensive builds?

And that's where i want to say few words about Heist league. Tbh, i never was so disappointed in any sort of videogame, ever. That emptiness i felt, when i read "harvest not going core", and i see myself dying to sirus over and over again whole league... It's like you lost a friend, but you dont have any actual friends. Hard to explain.

I don't remember how i did know about Harvest "going core" in Ritual, but man, was i happy. Even tho i'm 30y.o., i was like a kid in disneyland, looking forward to be ready to day 1, and have no issues and nothing disturbing me for few days, cause, you know, new league with harvest is coming, damn ill be ready.
Only 5% rates? Ic, it's ridiculously low, disgustingly low, should be more like delirium and being able to boost via any methods other than atlas passives, but, whatever, it's still Harvest.

I did say, i have now around 200ex laying around, was going to start aurastacker/intstacker just like in few days, but since this Manifesto came..

I feel empty again. I'm logging second day in a row, and just standing still in hideout, watching global chat. I have no motivation to start any other build, have no motivation to farm last harvests before they going to be nerfed. Have no motivation to "craft to STD". Have no joy to play anymore.

If someone enjoys to struggle killing "mainboss", i've passed that, i've done that. I want to go further. If that's not the way this game is meant to be played, as i see now, i'm sorry for taking your time to read this long message.

I see this manifesto as you are directly are saying to me:

"You are not worthy to reach endgame. You are not worthy to reach stage where you "craft items", not buy them = we take that away from you. Cause you arent in our family, you arent playing since beta, you will never be able to join that Class, as a solo player.

The highest goal you can set to yourself, your maximum is killing sirus A8 2 times in a row. You will be seeing beautiful items, and mirrors linked in global chat, but never be able to reach em, or considering to fund high-end build.

Humble yourself, you lowly man"

It's hard to lose a friend, when you don't have one.

I never thought GGG will bring Harvest back, like in Ritual, so, maybe... one day... after many years... i'll make intstacker in future, if Harvest will comes back..

But until then, i'm going to uninstall the game right after sending this personal Manifesto, i've jsut vaaled my HH to +crit chance, and actually was upset cause i wanted it to brick before i quit.

I know, these words wont ever change anything, barely anyone will read till end, but i feel like i need to do this, im not used to lose friends i dont want to lose.
Take care, Exiles...


P.S. all who makes RMT revenue in this game, every single one of them, are nails in coffer of this beautiful game, unfortunately.

P.P.S. No need to quote, or answer, i wont be reading. <3

"

VoxSophiae wrote:

I think these changes are a big step in exactly the wrong direction. Deterministic crafting is good for the game, both because it makes a wider variety of builds viable, and because it increases the speed at which people can, to their relative level of satisfaction, "complete" a build. This, in turn, increases the number of character archetypes that a player gets to play. The fear that players will run out of things to do is unfounded because leagues are only a few months long, there would always be another build to try out, not to mention challenges and the endless grind for currency for yet better gear.

If I were the designer of a game and I had designed a mechanic that was as engaging to the player base as this re-introduction of Harvest, I would call that a win and double down on it by expanding it. My suggestions:

1. Make crafts itemized so as to protect players from getting scammed out of their items. This would also make the purchase of these crafts available to users of the trade site, instead of forcing players to go through TFT to buy and sell crafts.

2. Make the powerful crafts much, much less rare so as to make them available whatsoever to a larger percentage of the player base. Here I could say a lot about the way GGG's mentality seems very focused on catering to themselves and a particular subset of the highest echelon of players, with little regard for people with families, jobs, or other responsibilities, but let it suffice to say that driving down the price of powerful crafts will improve the quality of life of many, MANY more players than it would hurt.

3. Expand the number of tags that crafts can target, so as to enable a yet wider range of viable builds. (Mana, Gem, Elemental etc.) Truly, the more the better here, especially if the fear is that players will run out of things to do, because widening the range of viable builds gives players more opportunities to set goals for themselves, and set out to achieve them through playing the game. More characters also probably means more MTX as players will want different themes for different characters.

I think the fundamental issue with the design team is the fear that players will run out of things to do, when in fact the game has much more of an issue with the things players want to do being unattainable. I personally have as much free time as I choose to allot myself, and I'm about to give up on this game because the things I want to do in the game feel as though they are being rendered, by design, unattainable. If I ever got to complete a build I would step into MTX territory for that character, if I knew I'd be able to do that repeatedly I'd step into supporter territory. If I can't, I'll find another game.

As for the issue that Harvest renders other mechanics obsolete, the solution is to empower those mechanics and make them more engaging, ideally up to the point where they are as engaging as the current high-water mark. On this front GGG actually deserves some kudos for the introduction of atlas passives, which is a great step toward empowering otherwise relatively unrewarding mechanics. I think further steps in this direction would be to the good.

A lot of people have been threatening to withdraw financial support from the game or quit entirely if these changes aren't reversed, if they haven’t done so already. Let me offer the proverbial carrot: GGG, if you reverse course on this and adopt a design philosophy that is more broadly permissive of deterministic crafting so as to respect the time of more of your player base, I and I'm sure many others will spend a lot more money on this game and POE2.

I’m simply not going to go all-in on a game that doesn’t respect my time.

When I came here in 1.0 you didnt even have masters and fell in love with it. Don't feel the need for deterministic crafting at all. Jun, essences and fossils already seem strong enoughh to me. I like to find things more than craft them. One reason I dont trade...talk about deterministic... And how exactly would you empower fossils, essence and jun to be up to par with an item edit that is harvest? You can't Harvest is be all end all of crafting. Does it all.

So they did what they could only do, bring down harvest to be competitive with other systems. IMO it's still too strong because they left add influence to influenced rares so you can still make 4-5 influence rares which just trump everything. it will just cost more because all the blocking and scouring you gotta do to get exact 3rd and 4th influences you want.

So first yall nerf multimod, then yall literally make fossils worthless, and now you pull this shit. How the are we supposed to make decent gear without pissing away a load of currency now? Can't wait to see literal trash rares going for 3ex now. A lot people are gonna move back to nerfed uniques for their endgame setup. Gotta love how they push out new harder than ever content whilst simultaneously nerfing our methods to get gear. Nothing like balancing the game around the sub 1% of players.

-1 Not happy with nerf. Like others I will not be supporting if these Harvest nerfs aren't reversed.

The fact that you added 3 posts today to cover this manifesto up before your MTX sale, so that anyone that was not around yesterday might not see before the weekend. This move by GGG feels super shady.

"

VoxSophiae wrote:

A lot of people have been threatening to withdraw financial support from the game or quit entirely if these changes aren't reversed, if they haven’t done so already. Let me offer the proverbial carrot: GGG, if you reverse course on this and adopt a design philosophy that is more broadly permissive of deterministic crafting so as to respect the time of more of your player base, I and I'm sure many others will spend a lot more money on this game and POE2.

I’m simply not going to go all-in on a game that doesn’t respect my time.

I was eyeing that Harvest pack for a while now. I skipped the actual league, but I was really enjoying it this league. I was looking at that pack again after some players were non too happy with it - or the purchase of it - in light of the announcement, and I found my one eye twitching as I was looking at it :( - just a little. Ah well. It’s a great looking pack that seems to have lost some of its weight... impact... something.

I was proud of my harvest crafts... sure its deterministic, but i still had to farm hours upon hours for multiple harvests, still take lots of "gambles", still had to do lots of re-rolls. But it was still rewarding and kept me around longer than ever this league. This change makes me sad.

- here, take this Mercedes, travel a lot with comfort.
- Ohhh, u're traveling too much and with too much comfort. Give us back Mercedes, take this one-wheel bicycle.
- Yeah, now we see: u're traveling as we thought :))

"

kanterbow wrote:

You want the Trading Discord? Take it. It's yours. But Harvest? Harvest I will burn to the ground. Perhaps the suffering of our players will finally stir something.

jesus...this is fkn gold

"

donkeypunchman wrote:

"

kanterbow wrote:

You want the Trading Discord? Take it. It's yours. But Harvest? Harvest I will burn to the ground. Perhaps the suffering of our players will finally stir something.

jesus...this is fkn gold

10/10