Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

With the resurection of diablo 2 I feel like this is a really bad time for you to do this to us.That in itself is already a good enough reason to stop doing this to myself.Hoping that one day I'll min max one character so I can finally play another.But no we know how it goes.Remove this and next league or two from now you'll add another ridiculous system that the top dogs will exploit.And if I mirror the best item now a few monts later it's obsolete or worse enchanted or enhanced by a lil bit so we get to scratch our eyes out.

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Demonoz wrote:

No the game isn't setup that way...

Yes at least partially it is, and you responded before my edit. :-/

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Obright wrote:

The game is already set up that way, except for making the items non-trade-able afterward. That will result in wasted crafts, as people either use crafts they don't need on junk items, or delete them to make room within their 10-craft limit. Meanwhile people that are desperate for them can't buy them from you for all the tea in China. NOBODY is happy.

In my opinion the problem isn't trading crafts anyway, it's the fact that you can't. You're forced to use outside avenues and forums where you have to hand over your items to strangers, trust them not to brick your shit, and people are getting ripped off left and right - rather than networking everyone's horticrafting stations together so that crafts can be directly transferred using the game's own, safe internal trading mechanisms.

First time I am writing here. I am playing the game almost 5 years, mostly in Standard because of lack of time. I have seen many changes and nerfs in the game. Most of the time, at the beginning you think it will be a disaster but after a while players seem to adjust.

However, in this nerf I think it will be a big difference, because we will not go into an unknown situation. We have played the game many years in the state of rng. I acknowledge that Harvest is strong mechanic especially in crafting certain items with low cost. On the other hand, every person has the possibility to craft his own character and the items he need. He doesnt have to wait 3 months or searching poe trade every day hoping to find the item and buy. Some people want to reach endgame with mediocre gear showing their skills. I accept and respect that, but they have to respect the wish of others who want to play one character and min maxed him. Everyone should be able to enjoy the game. If you dont like Harvest, just play the game buying items or crafting with chaos.

The reality of these 2 months, especially in Standard is that people are coming back and playing the game because they have a goal. Every crafting aspect of the game from essence, fossil to beast crafting is useful again and usable. The currency you spend crafting is going to players, if you buy services and not to the wind like the old metacrafting, so you help the economy. People are able to play certain builds that before was just a dream in pob.

Finally, unfortunately because of real life matters and family, I dont think I will continue playing 2-3 hours per day, as I dont think is worthy to take time off my family in order to grind daily 50 red maps t16 and have chisel and alchemy drops. I have played all the end game and the rewards are a joke. This is not fun. Congratulations GGG. You managed to destroy perhaps the only time both standard and league had actual fun.

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OssianTwo wrote:

Anyone know if we can get refunds on supporters packs. I feel embarrassed to have Harvest supporter against my account after these changes. If this goes through I'll be voting with my wallet going forward.

That's all we can do tbh. GGG should really be focusing on the performance, loot, trade issues, etc and incorporate the use of polls when considering changes like these.

Instead they convolute the game with broken mechanics not having play-tested enough and get the same hate over and over when they become nerf-thirsty. The game is essentially stuck in a perma beta state. What have you got to do to get things done at GGG? Who's limiting its progress? These fundamental issues have to be addressed.

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OssianTwo wrote:

Anyone know if we can get refunds on supporters packs. I feel embarrassed to have Harvest supporter against my account after these changes. If this goes through I'll be voting with my wallet going forward.

You are not the only one that seems to have some supporter pack remorse as a result of these changes. There was another guy in this insane thread that said they purchased the Harvest pack specifically because of Harvest. That is an interesting reason for purchasing a supporter pack. I never got one because of a league mechanic, but it's interesting to read about some of the other reasons a player would purchase a supporter pack (over obvious others like points, general support, or aesthetics). My guess is this is rubbing players the wrong way because of the price of the pack. I think your standard $30 and $60 packs that may be tied to a league are not a big deal if that league is simply yanked from the game completely, but at $240? Yeah I can see how that could sting.

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Poulak08 wrote:

....but they have to respect the wish of others who want to play one character and min maxed him.

I disagree. Everyone may want a min-maxed character, but it should not be obtainable unless with serious and extreme efforts!
I am nowhere near a min-maxed character, but it gives purpose to tend towards it. Have a bunch of upgrades at 5-10 ex, and maybe even one big 50 ex upgrade if I persist in the league.

But reaching that min-maxed state for everyone will kill the game. No more goals, and the usual "When everyone is super, nobody is super".

I still remember the best MMORPG of my life, where my build had a chase item I really wanted.

I still remember its name: Eriny's Charm.

Maybe 5-10 players per server had it. It would have made my build perfectly min-maxed. I was slowly building up to get enough guilds to help me get it.

And then, under the whining of the playerbase, they made all artefacts super easy to get. Everyone had every dream artefact. Owning one no longer meant anything in terms of achievement, or in terms of power differential. And unsurprisingly, the game went quasi dead within a year, because everyone ticked their bucket list, and no longer had anything to do. Everything was served on a platter. Players got borded and left the game. The game died. I still miss the game.

You should always keep some items, some dream items to a handful of players (and I am far from being one of them), because it gives something to aim towards. If we all could get our dream items or 95% of our dream items, we would have nothing left to do. AS I said earlier, I stopped playing Diablo 1 when I started using an item editor. I had everything at my fingertip, I thought it would be fun, it disgusted my from the game!

Thing have to be hard to earn in order to be enjoyed, many developers from various MMORPG said so: making things easy kills their games. But often the marketing and finance guys have to bend to the crowds and yield, resulting in killing their golden goose.

think about this twice, GGG.

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Zepepsico wrote:

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Poulak08 wrote:

....but they have to respect the wish of others who want to play one character and min maxed him.

If we all could get our dream items or 95% of our dream items, we would have nothing left to do.

While I agree with a good deal of what you said in your post, I have to take issue with this, and I see it repeated everywhere.

There is a vast difference between having "an item editor at your fingertips" and harvest crafting, and that difference is enough to keep people playing in a state of pathetic addiction literally for years, when they only have a couple hours per day to play because life. That difference means you still might go bankrupt before you ever get what you want, but you have a REAL CHANCE to get something really nice, so you keep trying.

Anyone who says different makes me wonder if they either got EXTREMELY lucky harvest crafting, or never really used it.

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Zepepsico wrote:

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bauermayers wrote:

It's amazing how you got everything wrong. The point of Harvest is not making OP builds, but to make non meta/weird/just for fun builds more viable. It's about build diversity. It's not that players didn't like the game before, but they introduced a mechanic that is fun for the vast majority of players, including casuals, non casuals, trade, ssf, and are taking it away. In a league that had a ton of server issues, graphic "improvments", issues, Harvest was one the thing pretty much EVERYBODY was happy about. What do they do? Adress the server problems? No. Fix bugs? No. Take away the one thing nobody has a problem with? FUCK YEAH!!!!!

I am afraid your perception can't really stand against the facts:

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League Launch peak Weekend after Drop
Harvest 127k 81k -36%
Delirium 133k 100k -25%
Metamorph 118k 96k -19%
Blight 75k 54k -28%
Legion 114k 95k -17%
Synthesis 113k 77k -32%
Betrayal 123k 106k -14%
Delve 76k 65k -14%
Incursion 96k 83k -14%
Bestiary 82k 68k -17%
Abyss 70k 63k -10%
Harbinger 98k 90k -8%
Legacy 64k 53k -17%
Breach 47k 43k -9%
Essence 33k 31k -6%
Prophecy 26k 22k -15%
Perandus 37k 32k -14%
Talisman 22k 20k -9%
Warbands / Tempest 32k 29k -9%
Torment / Bloodlines 14k 12k -15%
Rampage / Beyond 25k 20k -20%
Ambush / Invasion 20k 17k -15%
Domination / Nemesis 34k 32k -6%

On Steam, Harvest had the worst retention numbers (not sure if Heist was worst or better). Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/hi47ig/harvest_league_broke_historical_records_for/

If this league is a success, it's because of the Atlas rework (it's fun), the Maven missions (it's fun), Ritual (it's fun and more mobs and more loot!). Yes some players like, adore, worship harvest, but the limited evidence we have is that players absolutely hated the original Harvest league.

People do Rituals still? even most streamers just run by the Rituals and are just hunting Harvests, Rituals are one of the most boring league mechanics imo, click totem, fight summoned mobs... done. Feels more like a nuisance then anything else that just delays mapping speed. I played league for a couple days to try Rituals in maps and realized that right away and decided it wasn't for me so I just enjoyed Echoes of the Atlas on Standard instead.

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Zepepsico wrote:

"

Poulak08 wrote:

....but they have to respect the wish of others who want to play one character and min maxed him.

I disagree. Everyone may want a min-maxed character, but it should not be obtainable unless with serious and extreme efforts!
I am nowhere near a min-maxed character, but it gives purpose to tend towards it. Have a bunch of upgrades at 5-10 ex, and maybe even one big 50 ex upgrade if I persist in the league.

But reaching that min-maxed state for everyone will kill the game. No more goals, and the usual "When everyone is super, nobody is super".

I still remember the best MMORPG of my life, where my build had a chase item I really wanted.

I still remember its name: Eriny's Charm.

Maybe 5-10 players per server had it. It would have made my build perfectly min-maxed. I was slowly building up to get enough guilds to help me get it.

And then, under the whining of the playerbase, they made all artefacts super easy to get. Everyone had every dream artefact. Owning one no longer meant anything in terms of achievement, or in terms of power differential. And unsurprisingly, the game went quasi dead within a year, because everyone ticked their bucket list, and no longer had anything to do. Everything was served on a platter. Players got borded and left the game. The game died. I still miss the game.

You should always keep some items, some dream items to a handful of players (and I am far from being one of them), because it gives something to aim towards. If we all could get our dream items or 95% of our dream items, we would have nothing left to do. AS I said earlier, I stopped playing Diablo 1 when I started using an item editor. I had everything at my fingertip, I thought it would be fun, it disgusted my from the game!

Thing have to be hard to earn in order to be enjoyed, many developers from various MMORPG said so: making things easy kills their games. But often the marketing and finance guys have to bend to the crowds and yield, resulting in killing their golden goose.

How easy do you think the average player base still had min-maxing a build with this league? I have a pretty decent build going, with decent items, but I'm a few hundred ex away from achieving min-max. See the thing about goalposts is, they only work when you can feasibly achieve them. This is the first league outside of Harvest where I had an item in my head, with good mods that would be amazing for my build, and I actually felt it was reasonable to go for. Do you think when I achieved that item after a few days of fishing for the right crafts that I felt like I was done? No, I thought of the next item, and the only reason I was able to achieve most of that character's build was out of sheer dumb luck that I got 7 mirror shards from 1 metamorph early into the league. If it wasn't for that I probably would still be working on getting to where I am now with that build.

No one sane would balk at goalposts being achievable, if you feel like goalposts should be something you only achieve towards the end of a league or something completely out of reach that you only dream about then you have no clue wtf a goalpost is supposed to be.