Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

"

KicsiSVK wrote:

It seems this Manifesto with all comments is removed from the home page and when I clicked into recent posts it does not show up.

That is a bit paltroon from GGG. Cant use the exact word so used synonym as I would presume the post would be deleted.

"

Am3nti wrote:

"

I am glad that GGG thus far hasnt succumbed to listen to the cries of a minority.

Wow... Just wow. So the Harvest manifesto has the all time, record breaking replies and posts, both on the official forum (currently at 339 pages of replies and growing, compared to 50-75 pages for the other manifestos) and on reddit (8.3 k comments, with an upvote of 33% - they literally had to pin the original post so that reddit doesn't hide it due to the downvotes). So, overwhelmingly negative replies to the manifesto... and LOADS of them!

And you still say this is a minority... You might be just as out of touch with the game community as Chris was with his Exalt slam remark...

"

Xiipher wrote:

All good points on this topic have already been made. For those of you who still think the changes are good: You will reap what you sow. This doesn't change the game in a large way for your favorite SSFHC streamers. All of those people play the same boring builds over and over because they're good without requiring any gear. The result will be the VAST MAJORITY (99.9%) of players playing the same builds; those that are strong~ish without gear. For those that think they can still play other builds and make it to white maps - that's great but you are irrelevant and people want to actually see this game succeed.

I'm really unsure why anybody thinks that after this change GGG will balance other skills to the point of playable in red maps+. They are historically terrible at this and the empirical evidence is there for everyone to see. League after league there are only a handful of skills that are actually strong enough to be viable without harvest crafting. Viable in the way that they can clear ALL game content, not just meander through the story and complete a map or two.

The point keeps being brought up: Well the harvest changes don't effect 80% of players. Yes, because 80% of players don't play the damn game. The opinions of those who haven't cleared red maps or finished collecting all watchstones really don't matter to me and they shouldn't to you either. Generally speaking, it's good to hear from people that have actually experienced a topic, rather than someone who's just studying it and regurgitating what they heard from someone else. Make no mistake, many of these developers are a part of that 80%.

I love this game and have supported it for years and I hope many years to come. This change, however, is out of touch with its actual players. I really am curious if their bottom line is made up mainly of the 80% or 20% of players. I'm hoping it's the 20% because I know that most people that play this game as much as I do understand what's going on and will do what's necessary to ensure these devs get the message. Vote with your wallets, folks.

"

Xiipher wrote:

All good points on this topic have already been made. For those of you who still think the changes are good: You will reap what you sow. This doesn't change the game in a large way for your favorite SSFHC streamers. All of those people play the same boring builds over and over because they're good without requiring any gear. The result will be the VAST MAJORITY (99.9%) of players playing the same builds; those that are strong~ish without gear. For those that think they can still play other builds and make it to white maps - that's great but you are irrelevant and people want to actually see this game succeed.

I'm really unsure why anybody thinks that after this change GGG will balance other skills to the point of playable in red maps+. They are historically terrible at this and the empirical evidence is there for everyone to see. League after league there are only a handful of skills that are actually strong enough to be viable without harvest crafting. Viable in the way that they can clear ALL game content, not just meander through the story and complete a map or two.

The point keeps being brought up: Well the harvest changes don't effect 80% of players. Yes, because 80% of players don't play the damn game. The opinions of those who haven't cleared red maps or finished collecting all watchstones really don't matter to me and they shouldn't to you either. Generally speaking, it's good to hear from people that have actually experienced a topic, rather than someone who's just studying it and regurgitating what they heard from someone else. Make no mistake, many of these developers are a part of that 80%.

I love this game and have supported it for years and I hope many years to come. This change, however, is out of touch with its actual players. I really am curious if their bottom line is made up mainly of the 80% or 20% of players. I'm hoping it's the 20% because I know that most people that play this game as much as I do understand what's going on and will do what's necessary to ensure these devs get the message. Vote with your wallets, folks.

"

Xiipher wrote:

All good points on this topic have already been made. For those of you who still think the changes are good: You will reap what you sow. This doesn't change the game in a large way for your favorite SSFHC streamers. All of those people play the same boring builds over and over because they're good without requiring any gear. The result will be the VAST MAJORITY (99.9%) of players playing the same builds; those that are strong~ish without gear. For those that think they can still play other builds and make it to white maps - that's great but you are irrelevant and people want to actually see this game succeed.

I'm really unsure why anybody thinks that after this change GGG will balance other skills to the point of playable in red maps+. They are historically terrible at this and the empirical evidence is there for everyone to see. League after league there are only a handful of skills that are actually strong enough to be viable without harvest crafting. Viable in the way that they can clear ALL game content, not just meander through the story and complete a map or two.

The point keeps being brought up: Well the harvest changes don't effect 80% of players. Yes, because 80% of players don't play the damn game. The opinions of those who haven't cleared red maps or finished collecting all watchstones really don't matter to me and they shouldn't to you either. Generally speaking, it's good to hear from people that have actually experienced a topic, rather than someone who's just studying it and regurgitating what they heard from someone else. Make no mistake, many of these developers are a part of that 80%.

I love this game and have supported it for years and I hope many years to come. This change, however, is out of touch with its actual players. I really am curious if their bottom line is made up mainly of the 80% or 20% of players. I'm hoping it's the 20% because I know that most people that play this game as much as I do understand what's going on and will do what's necessary to ensure these devs get the message. Vote with your wallets, folks.

"

Hsplash wrote:

I'm so sorry Chris and GGG staff, this is what happens in a world where your audience is varied and with different levels of information, experience and expectations.

I think the changes were necessary and absolutely will be good for the long-term health of the game. Targeted annuls went against what poe has always been, and I'm glad to see them go. Annul orbs alone are enough. Some remove/add is great, which I'm glad you left in.

Aside from that all we lost is the explode chest crafting, which is an enormous blessing - this was killing the game. All people want is that item and are only using harvest for it. Forgetting crusader exalts and fossils are a thing.

Adding to the above, it's sad to see people not see the big picture. It has never been easier to farm currency. There are a plethora of ways and options, all of which the player can control. This league and expansion has offered so much in this regard. And yet most of the comments here are 'RIP, you're out of touch, you need competition'. It's quite tragic, but also predictable.

What can we learn from this? Be careful in giving the players too much power in one mechanic. The game has many ways to get to power items/combos. Harvest is a blackhole that dominated attention, as it is easy to understand (a simple menu) and it negates most of the other methods (re: crafting). This was a mistake, and you knew it yourselves back when you were launching harvest. It should have never returned in this state, but I hope it highlights the lesson to be learnt here - taking things away (even if for the greater good) is going to cause massive backlash. The community is the baby and harvest is the candy. Even though we were in danger of over nutrition and having rotting teeth - the community cries (not all, but seemingly quite a few).

Another lesson is communication. That line in your manifesto about closing your eyes and slamming an item with an ex is now being used as propaganda against you. Yes, it is more of a metaphor for the risk aspect of crafting this game has always had, but the community will use it literally against you if they don't understand the change. My suggestion is to be careful with such language in the future, try to do what you're doing (explaining the changes) but without invoking feelings and what poe is meant to feel like. People will always react badly if they don't agree with you. This comes at the expense of generating further empathy and understanding from those players that do get the change. I have never wanted to fly down to NZ more and have a beer with you all than I did yesterday - you guys are awesome, I'm 100% behind your game, your vision and this change, but don't cater to us - tread carefully in communication to avoid the accusations of being out of touch. You're not, this is your game and your success shows how in-touch you are, but you know what happens with a varied audience, the lower common denominator of empathy with your decisions will always, sadly, scream the loudest.

I'll end how I started, I'm sorry Chris and GGG team, don't be discouraged from your efforts to keep poe going for another 14 years!

"

Azarhiel wrote:

So from you point of view, even if i have only 20 watchstones, did not kill sirus, but can clear T16 maps i have no voice on the matter ?

Maybe it is also because i love this game and that every other ARPG are shit that i also want to express my opinion on the matter...

PS : With harvest i managed to have some okish gear to be able to get to T16 maps. Not good enought to kill sirus (left him with 20% hp) but still my best imrpovement since betrayal. I don't play meta, never will and i don't play trade / gambling craft.