Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

Yeees, we poe players must suffer, play the same builds all the time, not being able to find any good items on the market, oh how i miss the old days and the opportunity to ruin the item with an ex or annul, such a great decision GGG
I'd like to take this time to address this entire manifesto, and illuminate to you one more time the inherent problem with the current state of the game in regards to progression, rewards, and end-game crafting.

And YES, this is an EXTREMELY LONG POST, as I will be picking this apart, so spoiler tags are included,
Unedited original post
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We're going to be making some further changes to Harvest Crafting with the release of 3.14.0 in April. In short, we're concerned by how deterministic some Harvest Crafts are and how easily players can craft near-perfect items. We don't feel that this is consistent with how Path of Exile's itemisation should work. Before we detail what changes are coming, we want to explain a bit about Harvest's initial implementation and our design philosophy around items and crafting.

Our Initial Plan for Harvest Crafting
Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it. But because these items work equally well on both low- and high-level equipment, it's generally considered best to save them until you're crafting your end-game gear. Many players would even argue that it's best to save them to trade for already-crafted items. In either case, using valuable currency items on your levelling gear is generally perceived to be non-optimal.

When we were designing the crafting mechanics that would be the reward system for Harvest League, we wanted to experiment with a system that allowed you to craft items while levelling (using the equivalent of powerful currency like Exalted Orbs), so that players could get the experience of using valuable currency items without feeling bad that they were missing out on future value. Our goal was to make a system that was so attractive that players would try to improve their items by throwing a few crafts at them in almost every area that they play.

Towards the end of Harvest's development, it became clear that this was a very powerful crafting system. We had hit our goals and then some. The question was whether we should preemptively nerf it before players saw it, or try it out for a league at full strength. We decided to try it out. The data we'd get from players interacting with a very powerful crafting mechanic would be very helpful with our ongoing work deciding the appropriate power level of crafting opportunities in Path of Exile 2.

So we launched with the powerful version of the system, including some crafts that modified items in more specific, deterministic ways than we had allowed before.

Upon playing the league, the crafting side of it was an immediate hit. Players easily filled gaps in their builds while levelling, and made many, many mirror-worthy items. As our concern over this grew, discussion started about how to adjust things when we eventually integrate it into the core game.

Integrating Harvest Crafting into the Core Game (in 3.13.0)
We decided to integrate Harvest into the core game as map-only content. Harvest Crafting while levelling went fine during the Harvest league, but pretty much every league has some item acquisition mechanic that occurs while levelling so we didn't think it was necessary to have Harvest on top.

In the end-game, Harvest Crafting allowed the creation of some ridiculous items, mostly via a set of deterministic crafts that interacted with specific types of mods. This had to be toned down, and we had to choose between two ways to do it: either by removing the dangerous crafts, or by keeping them in as rare possibilities and then balancing by rarity.

We decided to do the latter. The good crafts would stay in the game as very rare outcomes. We didn't remove any crafting options, other than ones that related to the process of growing a garden as they became redundant with the garden-maintenance mechanic being removed.

So in 3.13.0, we released an integrated version of Harvest where players stumble across groves full of crafts and hope they get the most valuable deterministic ones. We hoped that this would still keep the most valuable crafting options available while limiting the most abusive crafting to just very lucky or successful players.

Analysis of Integration into the Core Game
With Harvest integrated into the core game with 3.13.0, players still made ridiculous items. Even the crafts we made quite rare felt pretty common when the entire community was pooling them together and using them on the right items.

The second issue was that players felt overwhelmed to get so many crafting options. It was possible for up to 100 or so crafts to be given to the player per grove, and this caused people to feel obliged to consume them otherwise they would be wasted.

The result of both of these factors was that players had access to basically unlimited medium-power crafting and had to RNG-hunt the best crafts which they could then store for later.

Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts.

The first part of this that concerned us was that Harvest was critical in making the best items (and hence made many other game systems obsolete). The second part, where it was inconvenient to trade them, becomes far less of a problem if we can solve the first issue. Our problem with all of this can be summarised with the following thought: "Why would I use a regular Exalted/Divine/Annul Orb when I can get one through Harvest that has a deterministic result?"

The entire rest of Path of Exile's crafting system is somewhat redundant with Harvest Crafting in its current form. While we are glad we tried the experiment of keeping all the crafts and balancing by rarity, it's unfortunately going to have to change.

Path of Exile's Item Philosophy
At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items.

When we were designing Path of Exile, a critical aspect of item acquisition is that it is through random (rather than deterministic) means. When you defeat monsters and bosses, you receive random items. When you approach Cadiro for a valuable item, you are offered a random one rather than one that you can control. When you craft an item, you receive a random modifier. In limited cases where you can choose a specific modifier, it's usually worse than what could have been rolled randomly. Even game systems specifically intended to involve determinism such as Divination Cards and Incubators still have amounts of luck involved.

It's also important that items are hard to perfect. Ideally there's significant diminishing returns in the currency item crafting process, which lets most players get something good enough relatively easily, and the expert players can show off with really good items that took a lot of effort to make. Obtaining perfect items is ideally close to impossible, with very few players able to claim that they have such valuable treasures.

We feel that the current state of Harvest Crafting runs against both of these important philosophies. We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve. It was an interesting experiment, and we understand that some players will likely be attached to this level of incredibly easy crafting, but it's just not the Path of Exile we set out to make.

This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

Upcoming Changes in Path of Exile 3.14.0
So in 3.14.0, we're making some changes. The first three are direct nerfs to Harvest, and the second two are improvements. It's also worth noting that Harvest Atlas passives have been adjusted to accommodate these changes.

Previously, every seed in a patch granted an instance of that seed's craft. Now, only some of the seeds do (so you're getting far fewer of the crafts that were overwhelming people with their quantity). Higher-tier seeds are closer to the 1:1 ratio from before.
Some mods that had overly-deterministic behaviour have been removed. These include all annulment mods (other than the ones that remove a mod that isn't of a specific type before adding one of that type), and all type-specific divine mods.
Crafts that add mods of specific types (like Physical Modifiers, for example) to items can now only be applied to non-influenced items, except for the existing mod that applies an influenced mod to an influenced item.
The chance of encountering a portal to the Sacred Grove in a map has been increased by 60%.
The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter.

Overall, this is undoubtedly a heavy nerf to high-end Harvest Crafting, but we strongly believe that it is in Path of Exile's best interests going forward, and that there are still a lot of compelling Harvest crafts that make the grove worth running at any point in map progression.
Posted by Chris
on Mar 10, 2021, 1:37:34 PMGrinding Gear Games
because as a long-time veteran of this game (more than 7 years), who doesn't dedicate their life to playing it (rare breed, I know) I think it's important for GGG to get a grip on who their player base consists of, instead of what their Reddit base consists of.

---please note GGG, these are two different communities---



Our Initial Plan for Harvest Crafting
The purpose of this league was to bring powerful crafting options to the leveling player base.
-- Mission Accomplished --
The spoiler statement is a fallacy. Here's why.
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Using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful, risky and exciting way to improve it...

...it's generally considered best to save them until you're crafting your end-game gear.


Chaos Orbs:
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Used to purchase entry level mapping gear (trade leagues), re-roll bad map mod combos before corrupting, spend on Zana maps, atlas/league mods and for the "Chaos Spam" method of crafting

Exalted Orbs:
"
Used to purchase mid-late game mapping gear. Used to create deterministic mods on weapons (looking at caster weapons here). Used to craft meta-mods on items to add more deterministic modifiers to items.
A Stygian belt bought with exalted orbs without an exalted orb applied (above)

--The bulk of the player base doesn't get excited over an exalt drop for adding a new mod to whatever item they're wearing at the moment, their excitement stems from the buying power of a stack of 100+ chaos orbs dropping at once, that they can use for trading. SSF are even less excited at an exalt drop, because there's but one logical thing to do with it.

Integrating Harvest Crafting into the Core Game (in 3.13.0)
"

We decided to integrate Harvest into the core game as map-only content.

Well this is interesting, integrating a league focused around the leveling portion of the game, and making it inaccessible to the leveling portion of the game

--Okay, so you gave the player-base a powerful system for (when used intelligently) crafting extremely powerful items.
For Instance

A weapon, crafted to "near perfect" status using harvest crafting.

Also known as a bricked project.

This statement is what motivated this post
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The good crafts would stay in the game as very rare outcomes. We didn't remove any crafting options, other than ones that related to the process of growing a garden as they became redundant with the garden-maintenance mechanic being removed.


Firstly I would like to thank the person who removed the gardening aspect of the game for listening to me on the last rant I had (just before harvest ended).

Secondly, regarding the ambiguous statement to "good" crafts: GGG please be very clear what you think "good crafts" are. Later in the manifesto, you seem to be targeting type specific swap, and type specific annulment. These are desirable crafts, not necessarily "good" ones.

I would think "Fracture a modifier" or "swap an influence modifier with another influence modifier. would better fit this definition of "good crafts".

I love this paragraph right here
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So in 3.13.0, we released an integrated version of Harvest where players stumble across groves full of crafts and hope they get the most valuable deterministic ones. We hoped that this would still keep the most valuable crafting options available while limiting the most abusive crafting to just very lucky or successful players.


Translation: If you can't exploit our game, please don't bother playing it!

Analysis of Integration into the Core Game

This quote in regards to crafting 'ridiculous items'
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With Harvest integrated into the core game with 3.13.0, players still made ridiculous items. Even the crafts we made quite rare felt pretty common when the entire community was pooling them together and using them on the right items.


--Another poor choice of wording to mask the underlying problem underlined in the text. If your player base is complaining about mods being too rare, and the devs are complaining about them feeling "pretty common when the 'entire community' was pooling them together."

The problem is not the crafting system.

The problem is that large collaborations of people are exploiting the core mechanic of the game (gambling) by funneling their efforts into one outcome.

Think math here, 1 person runs a map every 6 minutes, and these rare crafts pop up say 1/512 maps.

Solution: Get 512 people to run maps for your cause, and you are guaranteed at least one mod every 12 minutes, or 5 per hour, or a horticrafting bench of desired mods in 2 hours of time spent.

Imagine what a solo player could accomplish for his build when he can get desirable crafts at 5/hr... "near perfect" items perhaps?

the second 'issue'
"
The second issue was that players felt overwhelmed to get so many crafting options. It was possible for up to 100 or so crafts to be given to the player per grove, and this caused people to feel obliged to consume them otherwise they would be wasted.

THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MECHANIC as per a dev QUOTE earlier in the manifesto
"
Our goal was to make a system that was so attractive that players would try to improve their items by throwing a few crafts at them in almost every area that they play.


so, adding together these issues you get...

"
The result of both of these factors was that players had access to basically unlimited medium-power crafting and had to RNG-hunt the best crafts which they could then store for later.


The statement above is yet another fallacy based upon data derived from too small and too specific a sample size. BUT, looking closely at the underlined quote in the next paragraph, you see this underlying issue again!

that very next paragraph
"
Players also expressed frustration that the most effective way to get the best items in Path of Exile was to join a discord channel and try to trade for these incredibly crucial crafts


There people go again, doing that grouping up exploit to get crafts from the harvest content, that (for most) players are using to craft crucial modifiers for their build. I have a friend who plays solo, obsessively. I often am asked by him for specific crafts.

Why?

Because the sacred grove spawn chance is random.
The seeds in each plot are random displayed only by type
The crafts that each crop yields are random

Remember GGG, the last time you hid "good" things behind THREE layers of RNG?
Abyss League remembers, and we kinda hated you guys for it.

But this triple layering of randomness is different though, it's 3 layer deep slot machine to get something IMPROVED on an item YOU HAVE, where Abyss was a 3 layer deep slot machine to even get the item at all.

Again, a paragraph with more 'concerns'
"
The first part of this that concerned us was that Harvest was critical in making the best items (and hence made many other game systems obsolete). The second part, where it was inconvenient to trade them, becomes far less of a problem if we can solve the first issue. Our problem with all of this can be summarized with the following thought: "Why would I use a regular Exalted/Divine/Annul Orb when I can get one through Harvest that has a deterministic result?"


Here, GGG check this out

linked above is a very nice bow for an EDC trickster (not BIS, not even perfect) Crafted using a combination of basic currency, fossil crafting, meta crafting via benchcraft, and DETERMINISTIC EXALT SLAMMING.

No animals were harvested in the making of this item.

Meanwhile, I'm cringing every time I get a sacred grove with 4 chaos craft seeds, because I know, statictically, I am killing a garden full of monsters to open up the disappointment window, when all I want is a few augment and swap chaos crafts, so I can ensure I get a chaos resist roll on my gear that isn't 6%, so I can be forgiven the one time I juke left instead of right in my Sirus 5 fight, and taste his player tracking murder beam.

FINALLY GGG has a paragraph we all agree with!

"
The entire rest of Path of Exile's crafting system is somewhat redundant with Harvest Crafting in its current form. While we are glad we tried the experiment of keeping all the crafts and balancing by rarity, it's unfortunately going to have to change.


Yes, crafting with harvest is redundant with the currently implemented core elements of the game, so here's a fix:

greatly reduce the amount of alch, chaos, and divine crafts, barring the ones with lucky values, and make those with lucky values, MUCH more rare than they already are.

Alchemy harvest crafts are "good" as a free alchemy craft for a map that's intended to run soon anyways. If you want a specific modifier on an item, you would start out with a blue item and alt spam, fossil craft, or essence craft. Using Harvest crafting to supplement the missing mods needed to turn the gear piece into something usable.


Chaos or "reforging" crafts, completely dialed back, as these crafts are really "good" for rolling jewels, and with the power of cluster jewels, paired with the ease of access of this type of craft, it's surprising that any build in the age of Ritual league is without one.

Divine orb type harvest crafts are "good" for perfecting items... didn't someone say avoiding being able to make perfect items deterministically is a "critical aspect"

The rest of the "crafting" rolls don't necessarily scream redundant.

Path of Exile's Item Philosophy

a powerful statement

"
At its core, Path of Exile is a game about the acquisition of powerful items.

Yup, and when was the last time this happened?

Back in my day...

"
When we were designing Path of Exile, a critical aspect of item acquisition is that it is through random (rather than deterministic) means. When you defeat monsters and bosses, you receive random items. When you approach Cadiro for a valuable item, you are offered a random one rather than one that you can control. When you craft an item, you receive a random modifier. In limited cases where you can choose a specific modifier, it's usually worse than what could have been rolled randomly. Even game systems specifically intended to involve determinism such as Divination Cards and Incubators still have amounts of luck involved.


Sorry, but last time I checked, if I turned in 8 doctors, my chance of getting a Headhunter is 100% (that's pretty deterministic)

Spoiler
"
It's also important that items are hard to perfect. Ideally there's significant diminishing returns in the currency item crafting process, which lets most players get something good enough relatively easily, and the expert players can show off with really good items that took a lot of effort to make. Obtaining perfect items is ideally close to impossible, with very few players able to claim that they have such valuable treasures.


Again with the vague wording. What exactly is "good enough" because I can assure you that what items thought of as "good enough" by GGG standards, probably aren't going to help you survive yellow/red maps. Also, not sure if there is an awareness on just how much effort goes into procuring these rare crafts capable of creating "show off" items.





Spoiler
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We feel that the current state of Harvest Crafting runs against both of these important philosophies. We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve. It was an interesting experiment, and we understand that some players will likely be attached to this level of incredibly easy crafting, but it's just not the Path of Exile we set out to make.


Yes, Harvest runs against ONE of your core Path of Exile Philosophies, in that harvest crafts aren't itemized. So, there's an idea for a future content update. As for giving players too easy of access to powerful predetermined modifiers for their builds, unique items already do that, and are cheap as chips to acquire via trading.

as for the "...because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. My argument against this is as follows.

Math time.
spoiler tag for complicated math

there's 168 hours in a week. If someone like me were to dedicate every non-working waking hour to this game after
40 hours work (assuming no overtime)
56 hours sleep (assuming not sacrificing any to gaming)
14 hours daily upkeep (for hygiene)

That's 58 hours a week dedicated, over 12 weeks, just shy of 700 hours of playtime per league, less if there's a commute to/from work, or are responsible and pay bills, do chores etc.

so, of those 700 hours per temp league, how many of them should we be dedicating to gearing for A5 Sirus? A8 Sirus? Completion of Simulacrum?

The temp leagues contain very challenging content, but most notably, the extremely time-consuming challenges. So rather than gate peoples ability to run endgame behind a slot machine, how about we acknowledge the short time span of each temp league, and let players gear up, so that skill is the bar to completing challenges, rather than luck?




"
This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."


This member of your design team should be suspended until he's completed his first Sirus boss fight.

Nobody who plays this game legitimately, and has a sound mind, has this mentality when regarding exalted orbs.

Upcoming Changes in Path of Exile 3.14.0 (with fixes)

"
Previously, every seed in a patch granted an instance of that seed's craft. Now, only some of the seeds do (so you're getting far fewer of the crafts that were overwhelming people with their quantity). Higher-tier seeds are closer to the 1:1 ratio from before.

--This is acceptable, given that the crafts generated are worth the time investment.

Some mods that had overly-deterministic behavior have been removed. These include all annulment mods (other than the ones that remove a mod that isn't of a specific type before adding one of that type), and all type-specific divine mods.
--Translation: In an effort to reduce redundancy, and deterministic crafting, we've removed the features of this league's crafting system that made it unique, and desirable. I oppose this.
As an alternative, I suggest three changes
1: remove the view-port that lets you see what seeds are in the crop.
2: reduce the number of crafting options to 4-5 per crop.
3: remove the wilting feature, effectively doubling the difficulty of each encounter.

Crafts that add mods of specific types (like Physical Modifiers, for example) to items can now only be applied to non-influenced items, except for the existing mod that applies an influenced mod to an influenced item.
--With deterministic crafts gone, there's no real point in this, aside from the fact that it makes type specific modifiers easier to hit per roll, but again, this is vastly out shined with fossil crafting in it's current state.
Don't even bother implementing this one.


The chance of encountering a portal to the Sacred Grove in a map has been increased by 60%.
--Translation: 1 in ~5 maps, instead of 10. I oppose this too, what's the point of getting MORE useless crafting options?
If I knew I'd be looking at 5 crafting opetions per crop, but each of those options were deterministic, I'd be happy with the state of the league content.


The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter.
--I vote scrapping EVERY idea in this section, except this one here. This is a welcome change.




Just sickens me that because of a group of people in a Discord server wanted to systematically exploit the living crap out of Harvest crafting, that everyone who wasn't exploiting it has to suffer for it. These crazy stupid overpowered mirror tiered items people are making wouldn't be close to being possible if the crafts couldn't be so easily sold. Just make Harvest crafting bind the item to your account. I mean seriously, that is the best solution here.

That way people can still "feel the thrill of using an exalted orb on an item and seeing if it is ruined" and people who hate that way of crafting can use Harvest ethically. The top .1% can still make mirror tier items and sell them if they wish, and the mid/lower tier players can enjoy the game and the excitement of seeing a Sacred Grove. This league when I saw a grove I was so happy, it was an awesome and great feeling. Not once have I ever felt great about slamming crap rolls or chaos spamming. Yikes.
I came back to play after not playing heist because you re-added harvest into core game, which allows me to try different builds.
If you were to remove the determinative craftings, How would an average players like me be able to craft my items? I would no longer play the game.
Shall you want to get rid of the tft discord, why don't you make something similer to beasts?
I've been playing casually since 2013, and harvest league and ritual is the only league that I got to play more than 5 builds.

Finally, a way for us to get great gear without spending 100ex.

Harvest kept me going and trying out builds and improving on useless gear and making them better.

Able to progress and finally beat the harder bosses.

Now, it's gonna go bye bye and crafting= gambling again.

Sad.

Probably gonna skip the next league until a better crafting system is implemented again.

Back to 3 builds viable per league
PRE-HARVEST (playing 3-4 hour/day)

1 Fully Build Char with Meh gear (minion or miner most times), cant play all content = No Fun, no money.

HARVEST/RITUAL (playing 3-4 hour/day)

3 Fully Build Char with Mid-Good gear (almost any build i want), all content done with fun = Buy MTX Setups.

Last edited by Jundiaiense#2643 on Mar 12, 2021, 2:11:49 AM
It blows my mind seeing people complaining about how boring it is to have to farm Atoll 24/7, and so we are better off with harvest gone...

You realize you DON'T have to farm it right? You can just play the game the same way you did before harvest was ever a thing. Go farm currency and buy the gear someone else crafted. And guess what? You'll pay less now.

Whether you like harvest or not, it's a win/win system for everyone.
It's obvious community doesn't want to back to 'ex slamming with its special feel' (spoiler - feel is bad).

Me included.
RIP. Time for me to look towards other games. With harvest dead like this there's no way I'm playing POE as much in the upcoming league. Harvest crafting was the best thing to happen to this game.
Back when delve crafting was nerfed I completely stopped delving as it wasn't worth the time invested in it unless deep-delving. Harvest alongside other methods had me again interested in crafting decent items in this game.
And why does it have to be that a casual/average gamer can't have decent gear in this game or have a chance to experience the end game? HARVEST alongside other methods enables this.
I've enjoyed the game and supported it as much as I could. But nerfing something that has had so much QOL CHANGES EXPERIENCING THE GAME for most players like me is really taking away a lot. Really LIKE A LOT!
Now it just becomes a MINDLESS AND ENDLESS GRIND to get enough currency to be able to afford to craft good gear or worse even trade for good gear.
I guess it's too much to ask for having a good time in a game without having to play 12+hrs/day. Also the comment about the 'exalted orb' is simply showing how detached the DEVs are from what's actually happening in the game. Nobody in their right mind would randomly SLAM an exalt on an item. I've played on average 6hrs/day this league(thanks to HARVEST) and still dropped about 10-15 raw EXALTs and that's in 2 MONTHS!!! The SHIT's RARE RARE! Why would I simply slam one of my items with 0.1% chance to get the desired mod!@dev NOOB!

The real solution would be to bring up the other crafting methods to HARVEST level. Incursion mods are MEH, DELVE is OKAYISH with some stupid RNG. Or simply add more difficult MOBS why not monster level 100. Or if you really want to make some real changes just improve the performance of the game for a change. With content just bloating every league it's running worse than ever. even with the lowest settings the game CRASHES 20times a day on a PC that has no problem handling big titles like CYBERPUNK @HIGH settings|avg100fps without crashing.

P.S. NERFING HARVEST LIKE THIS IS UNDOUBTEDLY A BAD MOVE.

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