Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting
This game was founded to be diablo ii's spiritual successor which had a large focus on making any item in the game at least somewhat useful. Crafting is the idea of making your own brand of useful.
This manifesto is a gambling simulator that isn't fun or rewarding. Being able to take out bad mods off the 100000's of bad drops. Literally 99.9% of the drops are complete garbage and out of that 0.1, most barely qualify as keep worthy. while I'm a very casual player, even I have to say this is bad. Please reconsider. |
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"Using Exalted Orbs are exciting way to improve it ( gear ) "
xD GGG are clowns. Last edited by Elua#0230 on Mar 12, 2021, 1:34:52 AM
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gg again killed harvest,thx gg,i'll play on standard all time now [Removed by Support]
Last edited by Scott_GGG#0000 on Mar 12, 2021, 1:42:22 AM
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328 pages of unhappy people... kind of impressive to p/o that many..
Last edited by djmalsidious#7134 on Mar 12, 2021, 1:41:55 AM
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My account is about five years old, if not older. I am one of those "plays two weeks into the league then quits" players to a T. I've played this league more than any other and it's directly because of harvest. I've spent I think $100 this league and I wouldn't have if I wasn't having so much fun.
Harvest gave me an approachable crafting system and crafting goals. There are some crafts, non-type to type involved particularly, that are like puzzles to solve. I seriously love that. I didn't focus on perfect crafts, just various types of things I could learn to make and sell (mostly). I geared my steel lance build with fairly unique crafts nobody is selling. Impossible without harvest. Harvest gave me numerous things to look forward to that kept me in this league longer than any other. I'd rather see harvest removed entirely next league and reworked. The trust trades have to go. I like the change to drastically reduce the number of chaos spam crafts each harvest gives. I'm cool with losing divines. Keep annul, remove/add, and augment exactly the same but make them orb-able and tradeable. Do better. Please. |
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Very bad change...
If you want simple solution to deal with TFT discord just make a rule "if you used harvest craft you cannot trade item for 24h, if you drop item on map no one cant pick it up, like item from incubators. If GGG make this change and nerf harvest once again, they will kill many of non-meta builds and make SSF or HC boring once again. |
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" standard was finally fun because harvest made it possible for newer and casual players to not being forced into paying 250 exalts for just 1 rare someone else crafted... people were actually able to get into the vast and deep crafting system, learn how to craft and start crafting their own gear, upgrading it bit by bit to have a bit of smoother progress experience... all taken away now and why you say? because 1% of playerbase said so! streamers, literally ruined every game that i used to play! Last edited by Graas Hoppa#8002 on Mar 12, 2021, 1:53:02 AM
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I'm sure you don't care but if this is released I will quit playing. I just can't go back to usless rares and gamble crafting. By the way whoever thinks that using currency items like Exalted Orbs or Chaos Orbs on your gear is a powerful and exciting way to improve it has clearly never used them. There is nothing powerful about or exciting about using an exalt and get increased rarity on your gear. Removing deterministic crafting from the game is a big mistake that will cost you many players, I'm definitely one of them.
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Yeees, we poe players must suffer, play the same builds all the time, not being able to find any good items on the market, oh how i miss the old days and the opportunity to ruin the item with an ex or annul, such a great decision GGG
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I'd like to take this time to address this entire manifesto, and illuminate to you one more time the inherent problem with the current state of the game in regards to progression, rewards, and end-game crafting.
And YES, this is an EXTREMELY LONG POST, as I will be picking this apart, so spoiler tags are included,
Unedited original post
" ---please note GGG, these are two different communities---
Our Initial Plan for Harvest Crafting
The purpose of this league was to bring powerful crafting options to the leveling player base.
-- Mission Accomplished --
The spoiler statement is a fallacy. Here's why.
" Chaos Orbs: " Exalted Orbs: "A Stygian belt bought with exalted orbs without an exalted orb applied (above) --The bulk of the player base doesn't get excited over an exalt drop for adding a new mod to whatever item they're wearing at the moment, their excitement stems from the buying power of a stack of 100+ chaos orbs dropping at once, that they can use for trading. SSF are even less excited at an exalt drop, because there's but one logical thing to do with it.
Integrating Harvest Crafting into the Core Game (in 3.13.0)
" Well this is interesting, integrating a league focused around the leveling portion of the game, and making it inaccessible to the leveling portion of the game --Okay, so you gave the player-base a powerful system for (when used intelligently) crafting extremely powerful items.
For Instance
A weapon, crafted to "near perfect" status using harvest crafting. Also known as a bricked project.
This statement is what motivated this post
" Firstly I would like to thank the person who removed the gardening aspect of the game for listening to me on the last rant I had (just before harvest ended). Secondly, regarding the ambiguous statement to "good" crafts: GGG please be very clear what you think "good crafts" are. Later in the manifesto, you seem to be targeting type specific swap, and type specific annulment. These are desirable crafts, not necessarily "good" ones. I would think "Fracture a modifier" or "swap an influence modifier with another influence modifier. would better fit this definition of "good crafts".
I love this paragraph right here
" Translation: If you can't exploit our game, please don't bother playing it!
Analysis of Integration into the Core Game
This quote in regards to crafting 'ridiculous items'
" --Another poor choice of wording to mask the underlying problem underlined in the text. If your player base is complaining about mods being too rare, and the devs are complaining about them feeling "pretty common when the 'entire community' was pooling them together." The problem is not the crafting system. The problem is that large collaborations of people are exploiting the core mechanic of the game (gambling) by funneling their efforts into one outcome. Think math here, 1 person runs a map every 6 minutes, and these rare crafts pop up say 1/512 maps. Solution: Get 512 people to run maps for your cause, and you are guaranteed at least one mod every 12 minutes, or 5 per hour, or a horticrafting bench of desired mods in 2 hours of time spent. Imagine what a solo player could accomplish for his build when he can get desirable crafts at 5/hr... "near perfect" items perhaps?
the second 'issue'
" THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MECHANIC as per a dev QUOTE earlier in the manifesto "
so, adding together these issues you get...
" The statement above is yet another fallacy based upon data derived from too small and too specific a sample size. BUT, looking closely at the underlined quote in the next paragraph, you see this underlying issue again!
that very next paragraph
" There people go again, doing that grouping up exploit to get crafts from the harvest content, that (for most) players are using to craft crucial modifiers for their build. I have a friend who plays solo, obsessively. I often am asked by him for specific crafts. Why? Because the sacred grove spawn chance is random. The seeds in each plot are random displayed only by type The crafts that each crop yields are random Remember GGG, the last time you hid "good" things behind THREE layers of RNG? Abyss League remembers, and we kinda hated you guys for it. But this triple layering of randomness is different though, it's 3 layer deep slot machine to get something IMPROVED on an item YOU HAVE, where Abyss was a 3 layer deep slot machine to even get the item at all.
Again, a paragraph with more 'concerns'
"
Here, GGG check this out
No animals were harvested in the making of this item. Meanwhile, I'm cringing every time I get a sacred grove with 4 chaos craft seeds, because I know, statictically, I am killing a garden full of monsters to open up the disappointment window, when all I want is a few augment and swap chaos crafts, so I can ensure I get a chaos resist roll on my gear that isn't 6%, so I can be forgiven the one time I juke left instead of right in my Sirus 5 fight, and taste his player tracking murder beam.
FINALLY GGG has a paragraph we all agree with!
" Yes, crafting with harvest is redundant with the currently implemented core elements of the game, so here's a fix: greatly reduce the amount of alch, chaos, and divine crafts, barring the ones with lucky values, and make those with lucky values, MUCH more rare than they already are. Alchemy harvest crafts are "good" as a free alchemy craft for a map that's intended to run soon anyways. If you want a specific modifier on an item, you would start out with a blue item and alt spam, fossil craft, or essence craft. Using Harvest crafting to supplement the missing mods needed to turn the gear piece into something usable. Chaos or "reforging" crafts, completely dialed back, as these crafts are really "good" for rolling jewels, and with the power of cluster jewels, paired with the ease of access of this type of craft, it's surprising that any build in the age of Ritual league is without one. Divine orb type harvest crafts are "good" for perfecting items... didn't someone say avoiding being able to make perfect items deterministically is a "critical aspect" The rest of the "crafting" rolls don't necessarily scream redundant.
Path of Exile's Item Philosophy
a powerful statement
" Yup, and when was the last time this happened?
Back in my day...
" Sorry, but last time I checked, if I turned in 8 doctors, my chance of getting a Headhunter is 100% (that's pretty deterministic)
Spoiler
" Again with the vague wording. What exactly is "good enough" because I can assure you that what items thought of as "good enough" by GGG standards, probably aren't going to help you survive yellow/red maps. Also, not sure if there is an awareness on just how much effort goes into procuring these rare crafts capable of creating "show off" items.
Spoiler
" Yes, Harvest runs against ONE of your core Path of Exile Philosophies, in that harvest crafts aren't itemized. So, there's an idea for a future content update. As for giving players too easy of access to powerful predetermined modifiers for their builds, unique items already do that, and are cheap as chips to acquire via trading. as for the "...because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. My argument against this is as follows. Math time.
spoiler tag for complicated math
there's 168 hours in a week. If someone like me were to dedicate every non-working waking hour to this game after 40 hours work (assuming no overtime) 56 hours sleep (assuming not sacrificing any to gaming) 14 hours daily upkeep (for hygiene) That's 58 hours a week dedicated, over 12 weeks, just shy of 700 hours of playtime per league, less if there's a commute to/from work, or are responsible and pay bills, do chores etc. so, of those 700 hours per temp league, how many of them should we be dedicating to gearing for A5 Sirus? A8 Sirus? Completion of Simulacrum? The temp leagues contain very challenging content, but most notably, the extremely time-consuming challenges. So rather than gate peoples ability to run endgame behind a slot machine, how about we acknowledge the short time span of each temp league, and let players gear up, so that skill is the bar to completing challenges, rather than luck? " This member of your design team should be suspended until he's completed his first Sirus boss fight. Nobody who plays this game legitimately, and has a sound mind, has this mentality when regarding exalted orbs.
Upcoming Changes in Path of Exile 3.14.0 (with fixes)
" --This is acceptable, given that the crafts generated are worth the time investment. Some mods that had overly-deterministic behavior have been removed. These include all annulment mods (other than the ones that remove a mod that isn't of a specific type before adding one of that type), and all type-specific divine mods. --Translation: In an effort to reduce redundancy, and deterministic crafting, we've removed the features of this league's crafting system that made it unique, and desirable. I oppose this. As an alternative, I suggest three changes 1: remove the view-port that lets you see what seeds are in the crop. 2: reduce the number of crafting options to 4-5 per crop. 3: remove the wilting feature, effectively doubling the difficulty of each encounter. Crafts that add mods of specific types (like Physical Modifiers, for example) to items can now only be applied to non-influenced items, except for the existing mod that applies an influenced mod to an influenced item. --With deterministic crafts gone, there's no real point in this, aside from the fact that it makes type specific modifiers easier to hit per roll, but again, this is vastly out shined with fossil crafting in it's current state. Don't even bother implementing this one. The chance of encountering a portal to the Sacred Grove in a map has been increased by 60%. --Translation: 1 in ~5 maps, instead of 10. I oppose this too, what's the point of getting MORE useless crafting options? If I knew I'd be looking at 5 crafting opetions per crop, but each of those options were deterministic, I'd be happy with the state of the league content. The Heart of the Grove encounter is now a map fragment that sometimes drops from Tier 4 Harvest bosses, instead of randomly appearing in place of a normal Harvest grove. This allows you to trade the encounter if you don't feel up to it, and it means that finding The Heart of the Grove when you are in a map with difficult mods doesn't lead to an impossible encounter. --I vote scrapping EVERY idea in this section, except this one here. This is a welcome change. |
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