If fluoride is good for your teeth, or good for you at all...

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I mean, I'm sure the people who fucked up Flint, MI would love to find out about some kind of beneficial effect that occurs as a result of drinking lead water.

Flint water source was changed as a cost cutting measure. Totally not worth it, that is only after the fact.

Obviously they didn't put lead into the water because it is good. They did it because it save money. Nothing much to do with science. It is a focus on financial benefits ignore other aspect that is important.

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awesome999 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I mean, I'm sure the people who fucked up Flint, MI would love to find out about some kind of beneficial effect that occurs as a result of drinking lead water.

Flint water source was changed as a cost cutting measure. Totally not worth it, that is only after the fact.

Obviously they didn't put lead into the water because it is good. They did it because it save money. Nothing much to do with science. It is a focus on financial benefits ignore other aspect that is important.

It is really sort of irrelevant but they didn't properly balance the pH of the water. When the water was piped through old lead pipes from the water line leading up to the old homes the lead from the pipes leached out because the pH was not set properly. So they didn't really put lead into the water they instead neglected to add a pH buffer to keep the water from becoming acidic and then dissolving the lead pipes.

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Turtledove wrote:

It is really sort of irrelevant but they didn't properly balance the pH of the water. When the water was piped through old lead pipes from the water line leading up to the old homes the lead from the pipes leached out because the pH was not set properly. So they didn't really put lead into the water they instead neglected to add a pH buffer to keep the water from becoming acidic and then dissolving the lead pipes.

They kinda know the possibility of lead contamination by changing the water supply. They irresponsible solved that by ignoring it and not discussing it. Some of the water treatment workers was saying they would have to add corrosion control chemicals to the city's drinking water. People at the top said they didn't have to.

Nobody care until it's too late.

BTW: Corrosion control chemicals are expensive.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

So sure everyone(stakeholder) across the globe in every continent got together to poison Billions so that a small percentage of margin would go to these hard metal based production CEO's / Owners, with the guarantee of silence among various opportunists, as they spent money to control a narrative.

It's laughable but whatever.

I mean come on. Canada, US, New Zealand, Australia, Israel, South Korea, and more are just involved in one of the biggest cover-ups and organized secrets ever to have some totally unrelated companies profit hidden under tooth health? Seriously, give me a break.

Lord Ski, I am not advocating some grand conspiracy theory here. You making it seem like I am is strawmanning my position, although perhaps you don't realize how that is. You see, Hanlon's Razor cuts BOTH ways, such that a relatively small group of people can fool a great number.

Again, I don't think there is any massive conspiracy. What I do think is that studies from the 1930s through 50s would have biases towards what would appease industry. While I think conscious bias was possible, I am not ruling out the possibility that all bias involved was purely unconscious. But unconscious bias is not only possible z it's common. One needn't be a scheming villain to hope, and hope fiercely, that the data would show that the human harm done by one's client, who's paying the bills, was minimal or even beneficial.

And then once you have read a published study that's biased towards higher fluoride levels than are ideal, saying it has beneficial effects for children in particular, wouldn't you try to implement that in your non-US country as well?

I mean, cigarette ads used to feature endorsements from a majority of medical doctors. That's not a grand conspiracy proving doctors were in cahoots with Big Tobacco, it just means doctors who smoke have bias to overcome — which they eventually did, as a profession. History is full of similar examples of the "experts" getting it wrong. None of that proves the existence of the Illuminati, Darth.

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awesome999 wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

It is really sort of irrelevant but they didn't properly balance the pH of the water. When the water was piped through old lead pipes from the water line leading up to the old homes the lead from the pipes leached out because the pH was not set properly. So they didn't really put lead into the water they instead neglected to add a pH buffer to keep the water from becoming acidic and then dissolving the lead pipes.

They kinda know the possibility of lead contamination by changing the water supply. They irresponsible solved that by ignoring it and not discussing it. Some of the water treatment workers was saying they would have to add corrosion control chemicals to the city's drinking water. People at the top said they didn't have to.

Nobody care until it's too late.

BTW: Corrosion control chemicals are expensive.

Both absolutely true and completely despicable.

Oh, I also note that the governor appointed city rulers then callously lied and covered it all up as best they could while the brains of growing young minds were permanently crippled by lead poisoning.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

So sure everyone(stakeholder) across the globe in every continent got together to poison Billions so that a small percentage of margin would go to these hard metal based production CEO's / Owners, with the guarantee of silence among various opportunists, as they spent money to control a narrative.

It's laughable but whatever.

I mean come on. Canada, US, New Zealand, Australia, Israel, South Korea, and more are just involved in one of the biggest cover-ups and organized secrets ever to have some totally unrelated companies profit hidden under tooth health? Seriously, give me a break.

Lord Ski, I am not advocating some grand conspiracy theory here. You making it seem like I am is strawmanning my position, although perhaps you don't realize how that is. You see, Hanlon's Razor cuts BOTH ways, such that a relatively small group of people can fool a great number.

Again, I don't think there is any massive conspiracy. What I do think is that studies from the 1930s through 50s would have biases towards what would appease industry. While I think conscious bias was possible, I am not ruling out the possibility that all bias involved was purely unconscious. But unconscious bias is not only possible z it's common. One needn't be a scheming villain to hope, and hope fiercely, that the data would show that the human harm done by one's client, who's paying the bills, was minimal or even beneficial.

And then once you have read a published study that's biased towards higher fluoride levels than are ideal, saying it has beneficial effects for children in particular, wouldn't you try to implement that in your non-US country as well?

I mean, cigarette ads used to feature endorsements from a majority of medical doctors. That's not a grand conspiracy proving doctors were in cahoots with Big Tobacco, it just means doctors who smoke have bias to overcome — which they eventually did, as a profession. History is full of similar examples of the "experts" getting it wrong. None of that proves the existence of the Illuminati, Darth.

I mean ok? So you are advocating a smaller conspiracy that involved pay-offs to doctors in order for some companies to profit by fooling everyone else. Mustard seems to be pushing a larger, population control theory, so I guess there is room for nuance in each of your conspiracies.

I don't feel like entertaining either scenario because it just isn't plausible given the number of countries, regions, dentists, scientists, doctors, and private companies involved to all be on the same page. (for VERY LITTLE GAIN)

This isn't a situation of a few experts getting it wrong, or big tobacco, or the alcohol distributors / brewers (which never said their product provided benefits to your health)

I suppose I didn't want to lump you in with Mustard to begin with, but it doesn't really matter in the end. I think I know you are not that ridiculous, and Mustard enjoys trolling.

Meh I digress. No point in sniping at each other so I won't continue past this point. IMO Fluoride in the water isn't a massive conspiracy theory experiment into chemical population control & subversion, nor a ploy to make money for a few isolated metals based corporations, nor a massive population poisoning by neurotoxins that has alluded all dental and medical professionals in the Western World for the last 70 years.

AT BEST, perhaps you could say the fluoride benefits are overstated now given advances in dentistry and dental care during the same time period, and thusly fluoride in the water isn't a nearly as effective as it once was. That's a far better debate we could have.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Meh I digress. No point in sniping at each other so I won't continue past this point. IMO Fluoride in the water isn't a massive conspiracy theory experiment into chemical population control & subversion, nor a ploy to make money for a few isolated metals based corporations, nor a massive population poisoning by neurotoxins that has alluded all dental and medical professionals in the Western World for the last 70 years.

AT BEST, perhaps you could say the fluoride benefits are overstated now given advances in dentistry and dental care during the same time period, and thusly fluoride in the water isn't a nearly as effective as it once was. That's a far better debate we could have.

first off, i don't troll.
second, you're doing exactly the thing i anticipated which is why i refused to give you my idea as to "why". because you're so stuck on the concept as to why that you can't actually grasp at the facts.

information is there for all to see and get into. and by no means are these the only resources on the topic.
its just mind boggling to me how people keep talking about how we're better and smarter and science is constantly evolving and learning and growing yet we're still stuck in 1930s science with such topics like fluoridated water.

maybe ppl are just so vain they value anything that could possibly give them a better smile more than their actual health and longevity.
i can't possibly know the reasons but this is exactly why i just step out of conversations like this, because ppl are so blind, ignorant, and unwilling to any information that goes against whatever the fuck.

it doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy, it doesn't have to be about immense profits, sometimes it can just be about bad science. history is LITTERED with bad science, so the idea that it couldn't possibly be wrong is so confusing to me....since science time and time and time again has been wrong.

but you go ahead and keep trusting what the guy with the white lab coat says. don't research and study yourself, you just keep playing video games and watching netflix - more important things to do amirite

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xMustard wrote:

first off, i don't troll.

Lol sure, at least have some self awareness.

And the irony isn't lost on me, as you accuse everyone that doesn't agree with you on your take to be ignorant & blind.

This is no different than arguing with flat earthers, climate deniers, alien earth seeders, and more.

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xMustard wrote:

you're doing exactly the thing i anticipated which is why i refused to give you my idea as to "why". because you're so stuck on the concept as to why that you can't actually grasp at the facts.

I'm trying to understand (with difficulty), why you believe dozens of countries all around the world continue to fluorinate their water, if you think it's so obvious it's poison capable of mass neurological damage of billions of people? I cannot find a reasonable motivation. It isn't money, it isn't control, it isn't even a debate on good / bad science. Again why does the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Israel, Spain, Brazil, and more do this?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, because this is a lost cause. Trying as hard as you can to find a second opinion, or anyone with a science degree to share your point of view doesn't mean anything.

It's bad science because you say so? Trust the white lab coats? This is pathetic. I can't stand the empowered WebMD doctors and armchair psychologists that are everywhere now. Citing YouTube & Wikipedia... it's barely worth mentioning.

Is it possible MD's and Science professionals across the globe, in our most modern societies, have gotten Fluoride completely wrong? Fine ok sure. As long as on the same hand we can also say that maybe, just maybe, the anti-fluoride, mass population poisoning, or government mind control folks are quacks.

Edit: took out some political nonsense that really didn't serve the post well

I read an article that talked about the issue of trusting science. Scientist are trained to question already gathered knowledge. Look at something very simple like Newton sitting under the tree and having an apple fall. This lead to his theory of gravity. This was held as gospel and true for centuries and then some other scientist comes along and proposes a correction that we call the theory of relativity. Or look at modern medicine based on scientific principles, it is constantly changing and old practices are refined, changed, or discarded all the time. The article then went through other examples of this. It then ended with some comparisons to other branches of "knowledge" like voodoo. They looked at voodoo practices from 100 years ago and it was almost exactly like what is practiced today. It has not been refined or changed significantly over many years.

In summary, I trust the true scientists to question our existing beliefs far more than folks that don't have as deep an understanding of the issues involved.

Time to fix that for you.

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Turtledove wrote:

I read an article that talked about the issue of trusting science. Scientist are trained to question already gathered knowledge. Look at something very simple like Newton sitting under the tree and having an apple fall. This lead to his theory of gravity. This was held as gospel and true for centuries and then some other scientist comes along and proposes a correction that we call the theory of relativity. Or look at modern medicine based on scientific principles, it is constantly changing and old practices are refined, changed, or discarded all the time. The article then went through other examples of this. It then ended with some comparisons to other branches of "knowledge" like voodoo. They looked at voodoo practices from 100 years ago and it was almost exactly like what is practiced today. It has not been refined or changed significantly over many years.

In summary, I trust the true scientists

that distrust their scientist colleagues.

And you know what? So do I. I am unapologetically like what George Carlin said the American people are like:

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They elected and re-elected Bill Clinton because they like their bullshit right up front where they can get a good strong whiff of it. Clinton might be full of shit but at least he lets you know it. Dole kept trying to hide it, didn't he? Dole kept saying "I'm a plain and honest man." Bullshit! People don't believe that. What did Clinton say? He said, "Hi folks, I'm completely full of shit and how do you like that?" And the people said "At least he's honest." At least he's honest about being completely full of shit.

That is, in quite vulgar terms, the great paradox of faith in a scientific culture: we have a great respect for people who are right about being wrong and a great disdain for those who are wrong about being right, because as much as we like being right, we know that every motherfucker to have ever walked this Earth is, to some degree or another, full of shit.

Now I understand the part of you that doesn't want to really believe this. I said it earlier in the thread: there isn't enough time to investigate everything. You not only want to be intellectually lazy, but you need to be, because there simply isn't enough time, and we've got more important shit to do like sleeping and Labyrinth runs and text-based Lewis Black impersonations, and if we can't find somebody to trust then we won't be able to do any of that fun shit because we'll be stuck doing the research our fucking selves God damnit. But it would behoove you to accept the result of this inevitable choice to do fun shit instead: we're all full of shit, and we're just making it up as we go.