Code of Conduct Changes - Do better at least for optics

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The_Impeacher wrote:

How it ends:

Spoiler

Good overcomes evil

Ah yes, clearly the winner is always good. This post actually says a lot about you.

"

The_Impeacher wrote:

How it ends:

Spoiler

Good overcomes evil

Even a villain sees themselves as the hero of their story.

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AldarisGrave wrote:

"

The_Impeacher wrote:

How it ends:

Spoiler

Good overcomes evil

Even a villain sees themselves as the hero of their story.

"

Sarah_GGG wrote:

We have absolutely no intention of curbing constructive and friendly discussions just for the sake of it - but also, we don't think Path of Exile (the forums or the game chat) is the most appropriate place to be having these passionate and in-depth debates that tend to arise from certain inflammatory subjects. These discussions also have a tendency to make other players unwilling to participate or engage with the forums or in-game chat at all, and this is the opposite of what we want.

I've seen this claim from other companies, but I've yet to see any evidence that this is true. It's a very strong claim to make without evidence. It feels much more like a gut feeling, to be honest.

Couldn't the opposite be true? That banning discussion of arbitrary topics will lead to disengagement? Shouldn't that also be avoided?

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Sarah_GGG wrote:

There's a large number of more appropriate places online to hold these discussions. Regardless of the stance that is being taken on a touchy subject, someone is always going to disagree. We can't fix that (we wouldn't even want to), but we can ask that you take those moral, religious, and political dilemmas to another platform.

You'd be surprised. Clamping down on speech is absolutely endemic on the web. There's no crime in following the fashionable wave of anti-speech pragmatism, but it's morally abhorrent.

Nothing requires GGG to stand behind its community and admit that they're not "bad people with inflammatory ideas", though it is telling that y'all feel that this is so generically true that the CoC must pre-emptively target topics instead of specific bad actors.

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Sarah_GGG wrote:

Another key factor we discussed at length regarding this change is the effect these kinds of topics have on our staff. Forum and game moderation is no easy task and while many players do abide by our Code of Conduct, there are also many players that do not. There are a significant number of really horrible chat and forum postings our team deals with on a daily basis. We hope to significantly reduce the strain on our staff for the benefit of their mental well-being.

It's just words. More than one previous forum moderator of this forum are posting in this thread, so it's not like we don't know what you're talking about.

Some people can say mean things, but it's ultimately just a bunch of powerless whinging at best. And toucans, I guess. I hope for your staff's mental health that they are able to come to the same realization in time.

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At any rate, thanks for responding. I completely disagree with the change, but I'll try to abide it to the best of my ability.

I'm definitely not convinced that this new authority won't be used inappropriately given such shaky rationale.

+1

I also completely disagree.

It was 882 pages of mostly meaningless drivel. Yes, much of the last few hundred pages was drivel authored by me but still meaningless drivel. GGG can do with the forum as they choose. If they no longer want to deal with political and religious drivel then great. Their choice.

You guys are just upset because since I made the last post, I get the last word. HAHA! (Note: just a silly joke here.)

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antigegnar wrote:

Couldn't the opposite be true? That banning discussion of arbitrary topics will lead to disengagement? Shouldn't that also be avoided?

Not when your core business is a video game, now owned by TenCent Social Credit Score Crew. We that were here all had our wrestle with what that meant for us when the sale happened, some for ten seconds, some much longer, and left or stuck around. Some are new and didn't experience that.

Enough people stuck around, and kept playing. That's the core business.

The loss of a few people sensitive on principle to the erosion of freedom of speech (probably those weirdos who have read a bit of history, and or who have some awareness of human rights issues) where the line is discovered to exist and is drawn here is nothing to that money making enterprise, that has survived a much more severe test (the sale).

Who knows what plans are in the pipeline for the PoE product? Stripping back political and religious discussion makes sense for something attached to TenCent and fits nicely with the GGG team's needs because dealing with bans, infractions, pms, messages, tantrums and the content itself is hard work that I doubt they get training on from anyone versed in mental health hygiene.

Can imagine down the track Off Topic itself being deleted, as has been talked about for a long time now.

I don't think it's disengagement to stop using the forum or cut back in the light of this change, and possible ones to come (this won't be the last) rather it's being fully engaged, owning one's time and resources - circle of influence stuff - and choosing one's battles. The internet is a big place.

As a creaky old retired flame warrior, this kind of thing makes me long for circa 2006, not just for the stifling of topics, but for the PC bullshit jackboot on your face too that's everywhere.

Stifling stuff is not the way to deal with it. Kill it with fire (hell yes for some things) or communicate and seek to educate and understand, maybe by using some humour.

Oh well, for the here and now -

isn't a simple life free from worry a lovely thing?



Oh, and the world is possibly even a bigger place, hm, not a physicist...

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erdelyii wrote:

Spoiler

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antigegnar wrote:

Couldn't the opposite be true? That banning discussion of arbitrary topics will lead to disengagement? Shouldn't that also be avoided?

Not when your core business is a video game, now owned by TenCent Social Credit Score Crew. We that were here all had our wrestle with what that meant for us when the sale happened, some for ten seconds, some much longer, and left or stuck around. Some are new and didn't experience that.

Enough people stuck around, and kept playing. That's the core business.

The loss of a few people sensitive on principle to the erosion of freedom of speech (probably those weirdos who have read a bit of history) is nothing to that money making enterprise, that has survived a much more severe test (the sale).

Who knows what plans are in the pipeline for the PoE product? Stripping back political and religious discussion makes sense for something attached to TenCent and fits nicely with the GGG team's needs because dealing with bans, infractions, pms, messages, tantrums and the content itself is hard work that I doubt they get training on from anyone versed in mental health hygiene.

Can imagine down the track Off Topic itself being deleted, as has been talked about for a long time now.

I don't think it's disengagement to stop using the forum in the light of this change, rather it's being fully engaged, owning one's time and resources - circle of influence stuff - and choosing one's battles. The internet is a big place.

As a creaky old retired flame warrior, this kind of thing makes me long for circa 2006, not just for the stifling of topics, but for the PC bullshit jackboot on your face too that's everywhere.

Stifling stuff is not the way to deal with it. Kill it with fire (hell yes for some things) or communicate and seek to educate and understand, maybe by using some humour.

Oh well, for the here and now -

isn't a simple life free from worry a lovely thing?

The CoC changes apply to in-game chat as well. Maybe chatting about "forbidden topics" is what people enjoy doing while they play Path of Exile, and maybe those people will be less likely to play the game or purchase MTX if they can't do that.

"The loss of a few people" is a gut feeling. What if it's a significant number of people? Or, at least, what if it's more people than would be turned off by "forbidden topics"?

We agree that censorship is morally bad (the stomping of PC jackboots), but I'm not even sure that censorship is a wise business decision.

As for Off-topic, I agree that it should just be deleted. It's dead as fuck now, at any rate.

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pneuma wrote:

The CoC changes apply to in-game chat as well. Maybe chatting about "forbidden topics" is what people enjoy doing while they play Path of Exile, and maybe those people will be less likely to play the game or purchase MTX if they can't do that.

"The loss of a few people" is a gut feeling. What if it's a significant number of people? Or, at least, what if it's more people than would be turned off by "forbidden topics"?

We agree that censorship is morally bad (the stomping of PC jackboots), but I'm not even sure that censorship is a wise business decision.

As for Off-topic, I agree that it should just be deleted. It's dead as fuck now, at any rate.

Haha! My post definitely betrays my opinion of political and religious in-game chat. What people accomplish in ephemeral five word lines of spam amidst "give me ur free shit" and trap jokes is hardly going to set a petrol station on fire.

I guess we'll see how many players leave because they can't do that uh sophisticated debate any more so freely.

Didn't say Off Topic should be deleted, I'm not fussed either way. Knowing that it may well, yeah that affects how invested I am to some extent. Always has though, it's not a new concept.

ed: on the business, well, we have no idea of the numbers or the plans. Must make business sense and be a fair risk, it's not a chook raffle we're talking about here.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

the idea that political and religious discussions are "gateway topics" and that cutting them will "significantly reduce the strain on bour staff for the benefit of their mental well-being" is a bad joke.

I'm going to disagree. Imagine for a moment that you are a GGG moderator. You have a VERY strong opinion on a certain thread, but you are not allowed to place your own comments in it because then it could be construed as GGG's opinion.

You watch this thread go on for what - close to 2,000 pages? - in its three iterations - yet you cannot speak.

There are other jobs in the real world where to maintain the image of professionalism, a person must listen to and try to ignore a lot of stuff they find offensive.

I can respect Chris Wilson for wanting to protect his team from having to put up with unnecessary mental anguish.

GGG gave us a lot more leeway than I ever expected. There are aspects of reality that people do NOT like to think about, much less be reminded of. Video games are meant to be a temporary escape from real life problems, and GGG shouldn't be faulted because they want their team to be able to enjoy their jobs, rather than dread them.

There are some critical elements missing from all of our "discussions".
We are talking to many people, and many people are talking to us and to each other, but it isn't in real time. There is a disjointed nature in which each of us chooses to hear and respond to what we want to, which makes it even more confusing.

We are not experiencing things face to face, so we lack the emotional feedback of how our message is heard or hurtful. The words we type are semi-permanent, unlike verbal speech, which tends to get muddled and have less of an impact. Without personal interaction, we lack the cues that we use in real life to determine whether someone's message is honest or dishonest. Topics with a lot of emotional impact become more heated then they would likely become in real life. People don't want to hear the "truth" on the internet, they want to hear something that is familiar and comforting to them. As Depeche Mode wrote in Lie to Me:

"Experiences have a lasting impression
But words once spoken
Don't mean a lot now
Belief is the way
The way of the innocent
And when I say innocent
I should say naive
So lie to me
But do it with sincerity
Make me listen
Just for a minute
Make me think
There's some truth in it

Promises made for convenience
Aren't necessarily
What we need
Truth is a word
That's lost its meaning
The truth has become
Merely half-truth
So lie to me
Like they do it in the factory
Make me think
That at the end of the day
Some great reward
Will be coming my way"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlMBs_HUcxQ