Energy Shield and Life

"

Genmaicha wrote:

Don't see the point of crying about GGG breaking builds. Uhhh... rebuild it then?

Point is you can't just rebuild them. Pathing for Shadows and Witches is primarily ES for defense, leaving those classes now far far behind a 6K HP Marauder. Their dmg was always lower and the balance for lower damage was higher survivability via ES leech. By removing that you now have a character with lower damage and far less survivability since they have little to no physical mitigation or evade chance. Being able to leech back energy shield was the only way to keep them alive short of poke run poke run tactics, meaning things like CWC are out of the question as you must remain stationary for 1-2 seconds minimum to deal damage. With a lack of leech that means you are dead in the water because not only can you not deal damage because you must move to stay alive, you can no longer hold still to cast because 1 or 2 hits will be enough to kill you. The balance was fine, now 2 classes of characters will be completely unplayable and we will all be forced into DOT rangers or Cheese totem builds in order to stay alive. Armor and Evade are complete trash forms of defense. Even with say a 60% phy mit on armor 15K boss hits are still enough to 1 shot you with 5-6K life, and evade is a coin toss on any mob you come across whether or not you will be dead meat.
You cannot simply rebuild a character that was based on a now useless form of defense.

"

ApocNizmith wrote:

Point is you can't just rebuild them. Pathing for Shadows and Witches is primarily ES for defense, leaving those classes now far far behind a 6K HP Marauder. Their dmg was always lower and the balance for lower damage was higher survivability via ES leech. By removing that you now have a character with lower damage and far less survivability since they have little to no physical mitigation or evade chance. Being able to leech back energy shield was the only way to keep them alive short of poke run poke run tactics, meaning things like CWC are out of the question as you must remain stationary for 1-2 seconds minimum to deal damage. With a lack of leech that means you are dead in the water because not only can you not deal damage because you must move to stay alive, you can no longer hold still to cast because 1 or 2 hits will be enough to kill you. The balance was fine, now 2 classes of characters will be completely unplayable and we will all be forced into DOT rangers or Cheese totem builds in order to stay alive. Armor and Evade are complete trash forms of defense. Even with say a 60% phy mit on armor 15K boss hits are still enough to 1 shot you with 5-6K life, and evade is a coin toss on any mob you come across whether or not you will be dead meat.
You cannot simply rebuild a character that was based on a now useless form of defense.

I am expecting ES to be actually boosted much beyound what it was.

Life is just too OP.

"

ACGIFT wrote:

I have a few main thoughts on the rebalance...

• ES has been massively overpowered for ages, to the point where taking anything other than a 5-digit ES VP+GR build has been nothing more than a self-imposed "challenge." It's NOT fun for a game to basically tell you "we sold you the game on all these choices, but you're only going to do well if you take one very specific choice." It means the game isn't doing well what it's SUPPOSED to do well. I play Path of Exile to have a game where I can get creative, and win based upon my skill... But often enough, the key to success for ANYONE is NOT "git gud," but instead "copy the meta and you'll never have to git gud."
  
  
• My main concern is whether the rebalance will be precise enough. GGG, at least, does recognize that technically, there should be ES builds out there that are NEITHER LL or CI; this includes both ES+evasion and ES+armour builds, as well as those that build just ES and Life. Under the current regime, they're VERY unviable to build; worse than going pure evasion or pure armour, and that much further beneath CI & LL. GGG needs to ensure that they don't hurt these builds even MORE, even if they fail to make them more on a par with the "pure" builds.
  
  
• Naturally, it's always a concern on whether a rebalance ("nerf") might get more over-zealous; somewhat hand-in-hand with the above, there's a question of who might be negatively affected that wasn't part of the problem to begin with. If we're talking statistical distribution, the problematic builds/characters are those at the tail end of the curve; those that are well above the rest of the possible range.
  
  In this regard, I do question the wisdom of a direct (especially non-retro) nerf to ES mods. The fact that it leaves some (now VERY powerful) legacies will be problematic for Standard, given that's now the biggest league, NOT the challenge league. (consequences of a maturing game) As it's easier to alt on a single high-tier defense mod over getting a rare with multiple mods of the right type, I fear this may actually stratify gear a bit MORE, placing an even-higher necessity (and hence premium) on the high-end gear.
  
  
• And again, I do hope that GGG doesn't make the mistake they made back in 2.3.0 just to get at the ONE singular build (Voltaxic Spark) that was upsetting the game's balance. That was a really ham-fisted change that inadvertently ruined two of my characters, making them almost entirely unviable, while barely bringing Voltaxic Sparkers back in line; we saw a lot of 'em until the streamers got bored with that and moved onto Blade Vortex.
  
  One major thing to consider is the difference in ES users, which can, in a way, all be broken into categories by what their chestpiece is:
  • LL users with a Shavronne's Wrappings. A few seasons ago, this was the main meta, and they're still pretty popular/viable, owing to stacking 10+ auras at once.
  • CI users with an 850+ ES Vaal Regalia. By FAR the meta defense build since the beginning of 2.4.0. Easily builds 15,000-20,000 total hits, and combined with GR+VP, basically trivializes Shaper and other endgame encounters.
  • Everything else. Literally, every other endgame (T11-T17) build using an ES-providing chest NOT one of the above two can all be put together, and STILL be less common than either of those above, which is problematic when you have uniques like The Beast Fur Shawl and Infernal Mantle, alongside hybrid defense (ES+armour or ES+evasion) chests... To say nothing of the (currently useless) ES+max life chests. GGG needs to make sure they don't shove THESE chestpieces even further into the abyss in their effort to put Vaal Regalia and Shav's in their proper place.
  
  
• Lastly, the outpouring of salt from players that, at a glance, relied on cookie-cutter meta to be hilarious.

"

Smear wrote:

Actually, by killing a large chunk of the player base's builds, you might as well say "RIP fucking PoE".

Because when all this silly nerfing is over, the only thing left will be vanilla players with no desire to excel at the game.

Or rather, "RIP all the players that can't think for themselves and have to rely on copy-paste builds." And trust me, it won't be so bad; give it a couple of weeks and the streamers will have another build for you to copy-paste and redo Quid with.

"

BlazeSTX wrote:

They are NERFING the ES instead of BOASTING IT ?!

Well, the fact that you wrote "boasting" instead of "Boosting" speaks volumes... Also, you didn't read the Manifesto, did you? ES (and CI+GR+VP in particular) has been wildly overpowered since at least the beginning of Atlas of Worlds.

"

ThorTX wrote:

I am full life build, and I can clearly state 1 LIFE = 1.5 up 2.5 ES, and You are nerfing it ?!

Well, if you'd noted how builds work, or even read what they said... Even if we took "1 life = 2.5 ES," the balance is still whack since you can relatively easily fit 25,000 ES on a character without sacrificing clear speed, while GGG notes the theoretical cap for a useless rock is around 9,000 life.

Given the practical cap while still retaining viable clear speed is closer to 5,000 life, (most of my life-based builds land very close to this!) by that measure ES should cap out around only 7,500-12,500, or in other words, half or less of what they do currently.

LOL

Not much worth reading here. Why?

You're singling out my Quid build. K, fair enough. It's a HOWA ST build, with 9.6k ES, medium weight gear, medium weight damage. I had to trade for ages to get the 35 or so ex to make it. It's not a over the top leet gear setup. And I still die on certain t15+ bosses. I can't just mindlessly click and kill end game content bosses.

Now, given this, the main stream ES builds have far less ES than Quid. They struggle to go beyond say t12 maps, but people such as yourself will claim they are OP simply by proxy they have 7.5k es. Wow, the ignorance of people posting on here.

Over the top builds you speak of were 100s of ex. Do you understand this basic premise? GGG is literally destroying a large chunk of the player base viable builds to suit the cries of people like yourself. "It's not fair" mantra. LOL

By comparison, I have a 6.6k life Sunder Marauder. I have tried many ways to make it tanky and have enough damage to be end game viable. As of now, I use a combination of armour/evasion and life to survive in t13+ maps. Some bosses I completely have to avoid due to the utter BS 1 shot mechanic. Let me just say this, 6.6k life is NOT ENOUGH to be end game viable.

Both of the above builds are fun to play. Now one is gone and I'm left with a life based build that is ok'ish, but not shaper viable. I don't have the desire or will to "rebuild" yet again, spend 100s of hours farming, trading, saving to only have it destroyed by GGG zealots. Capisce?

GGG is killing this game all in the name of "balance". Once it sinks in after 3.0 goes live and a huge chunk of people's hard work has been crushed out of existence, GGG WILL feel the bottom line pinch. This is an unavoidable fact people like you don't understand.

GGG can piss off now. Like others have stated, I'm done supporting them. Death by a thousand cuts is what is coming for PoE.

the problem is vinktar and to a lesser extent vaal pact. remove both from the game. voila balanced. maybe atziri's flask too.

you nerfed multiple dipping damage via flasks so please complete the circle and nail the rest of the equation.

Ahh...The usual and neverending debate. Because everyime a nerf/buff/rebalance takes place in every game in this universe the same debate and the same arguments are made in an endless loop, some obvious points:

1)GGG clearly stated that changes especially in Vaal Pact are AGGRESSIVE. That means that everything is under consideration in Beta according to how things play out. That ES number are going to be nerfed, that is for sure. But for VP+GR? Save your tears for when 3.0 hits the ground.

2)In many->most of the cases, trivial is pair with expensive and people tend to forget that. How many semi-casual, semi-dedicated players like me can afford a LL build? (I mean actual afford, without buing currency and/or carry services and the like. Just by solo-party grinding, trading etc. SSF even worse of course). How many of the same players have a build with over 10-12K ES? Do you have an idea ho much a 6L Vaal Regalia and/or a Sadist Garb with > 600ES cost? Do you consider these prices casual?

So it is more legit to state that "ES is one of the most so-to-say "pay-to-play" aspects of the game" and tackle that, rather than general bitching and arguments that only scratch the surface. What about legacy Kaom's? It got nerfed for the same reason more or less, but still one of the few if not only options for Life based "pay-to-play" builds.

There are and always be "pay-to-play" stuff in every game. The question is the steepness of this curve and for ES this was clearly softened more than GGG would have desired. But still, rebalancing from say 12k ES to 7k is not normalization of this curve and it certainly does not bring ES on par with other def.

3)The main issue with combos such as ES+VP+GR is that they are at the same time OP and Only Viable choice for a wide variety of builds. GGG is said (and I am really convinced) that the care for build and playstyle variety, but in ES based builds, the way ES is built as an INHERRENT alternative to LIFE and not to Ar/EV as a newbie would expect ( I wouldnt know the initial desire of GGG and how thing took over from there) but with fundamental differences, VP+GR makes ES god where absence of them paired with low ES values makes ES weak. If GGG wants seriously to go down that path they need more fundamental changes and alternatives to VP+GR path rather just nerf. I want to repeat that GGG stated that all this is under test because it is not a light change, but still.

People playing the left side of the tree are talking about "kite" and mechanics, but they,too, rely on VP on many cases, heavy regen and the like and of course not only mechanical knowledge, kiting etc. People,please on that.
ES solely based on kiting is an obvious joke by people who just love to flame. Then again, this is the main issue. The way PoE evolved, some combos are way more game defining than desired. facetank might turn to almost useless in just a second. To go from facetank to kite is a huge leap.

4)The way to go, as stated with DoT which I think was more clearly and thoughtfully stated than ES balance, is to provide viable alternatives, or to re-phrase "make people think once again in order to make things work." For example, giving incentives and/or "bonuses" to go trully hybrid and not LL is a way to go, because no-one is actually playing hybrid end-game and this can open up many possibilities. Or, rework other passives in conjunction with VP+GR and maybe some skills in order to provide alternatives. Find and explore more ways to steepen the curve for CI_VP_GR.

5)In order to see what is meta, the easiest way is to look at the ladders. It is easy to focus on ES when the ladder is crammed with Pathfinders and/or Raiders, with Kinetic Blasts and Barrages...Remember the good old days (1.x.x) when the ranger was trash? For once more, path from god to trash is sometimes just a few steps away.

Bottomline: ES needs nerf on means of distoring this "Single no-brainer" option of Vaal Regalias + GR + VP + tons of damage. It does not need nerf period. The idea is (and i want to repeat myself once more) to make more options really viable, not make people abandon this and "pay-to-play" for a single one "something else".

Balance the game in order to trully make many things work towards the Shaper. Not make the same things work cheaper or more expensive than before. Just add variety with the required touch of rebalance in some obvious discrepanices (900ES regalias,1K kaoms etc.)

"

kehlarn wrote:

the problem is vinktar and to a lesser extent vaal pact. remove both from the game. voila balanced. maybe atziri's flask too.

you nerfed multiple dipping damage via flasks so please complete the circle and nail the rest of the equation.

Yup. Simple and easy.
and the beginner 1 posts is still pointing toward 1 build with 25k ES, which is :

- Unplayable.
- Unrelayable.
- Uber expensive.
- Not vial practically.
- Not fun at all practically.
- Most of peoples will never ever do it.


It is really anoyings me how some 17 year old troll with no mind can destroy the game for 1/2 of the population, just to sell his life gear to the gold sellers and cash shops, and leave the game happily.
Great. Just great job GGG. :E :(


and the other one which is COMPARING life with ES - 2 completely uncomparable things, because
as the guy said 1 life is almost 2.5 ES, but he is not mentioning the ARMOR and EVASION ratings
which is COMPLETELY MISSING IN ES builds. And we are still not mentioning the crazzy DANCE-ALIKE stuff related in Life builds which can directly avoid hits. Guys.. GUYS?! hello ?! Did someone ever haver EVER CHECKED THE SKILL TREE FOR THE LIFE BUILDS ?!
6000 Life = 17 0000 ES. End of the story.
And this is the mainstream. which for the ES is usually 11 000, while the life builds mainstream is still 6000. Therefore the life builds is OP, and therefore if they nerf the ES with 20%, then they shall nerf the life with 28% to fit in this absolute, complete absurd called BALANCE.

I am sorry but this really is crushing the stupid-o-meter for me. Probably I am super stupid guy.

for some more constructive feedback.
i agree that facetanking with a 20k healthpool that refills instantly is ridiculous. the way to fix it is to remove or limit 1 of the aspects that makes this possible. so here is what i think they could have done.

1: nerf vaal pact, make it so ES wont be affected by it. and it cant be combined with ghost reaver.

2: give ghost reaver a penalty on amount leeched, so ES wil need much more leech then hp for it to refill the same amount, or it wil just take allot longer to leech the same amount.

3: nerf the ES pool so it wil be more in line with the HP pool. and 1 shotting wil be a serious possibility again if you ignore dangerous monsters and bosses.

GGG balance team: "Fck it, lets do them all"

Btw legacy vinktar still wont be removed? So ES still best option on standard?

Okay somebody riddle me this:

Assume you have 200% increased energy shield from tree, and 250 int for another 50% increased ES, and 35% from Elreon rings. Now, you're losing say, 30% from gear, losing 13% because of loss of infused shield, and losing the 35% increased from Elreon rings (another 12% loss).

.7 * .87 * .88 = .54

In other words, we're talking about new ES builds, all else being equal, having about 55% of the ES of the old builds.

Basically, you have to go *HAM* on energy shield to the expense of god knows what else, just to have more ES than a life build with 200% life from tree and some jewels devoted to life for like a total of 220%ish that's wearing a belly and can spec vaal pact.

Meanwhile, life builds can still get acrobatics, or max block, or armor, or whatever their heart desires. Meanwhile, ES just has...ES, and has lost vaal pact.

What builds will even want ES anymore?