PVP RULES....

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Dethklok wrote:

Fair enough but I think the purpose for this thread is trying to get rid of the most OP things first, Everyone complains about EA and unavoidable damages, Traps/mine and 1 shots I dont think ive seen anyone complain too much about Demi. Im sure Mulla would have make a thread and called him a bunch of names by now if that was the case :D

It's because demi has better things to do than troll people in sarn with his afk build for 8hr+ a day. And I believe he would also be the first person to tell you how ridiculous it is. Believe me, people would be bitching about it if he was behaving in the same fashion as the zerphi/EA/winter enchant/HoT/dying sun fucbois.

Balancing the regen/aegis tanks is just as important as balancing the 1shots.

Saying the writhing jar isn't a problem or has a rightful place in pvp is insane to me and I couldn't disagree more.

Also, great convos we're having btw, don't let the internet's inability to communicate one's tone through text think that any of us are upset. These are good convos to have

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Márkusz wrote:

As you exclude the obvious nono op dps combos, which don't need too much of a discussion as most of us agrees, op defense will become more of a problem, and should be also discussed.

While I agree defences will become a lot more popular if OP damage is removed I still think some more testing needs to be done for us to say what if any defences are too op or at what extremes they need to be limited. I would propose that we take some tanky regen characters like Demi, Mulgrubin and whoever else and put them against builds that arnt completely broken like Mullas maybe some crit ek casters or something and see if there's any way for them to kill the tank. We should also put the tanks against fast high damage or tanky characters and see if they can stop matches from going to a draw.

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Ahfack wrote:

It's because demi has better things to do than troll people in sarn with his afk build for 8hr+ a day. And I believe he would also be the first person to tell you how ridiculous it is. Believe me, people would be bitching about it if he was behaving in the same fashion as the zerphi/EA/winter enchant/HoT/dying sun fucbois.

Isn't most of his damage from trigger gems? In a 1v1 if I didn't attack him at all does he have a way to kill me? Ive seen his character do guardians and it while it is tanky the damage isnt anywhere close to other builds and I can't imagine the character is very fast. Im sure a raider who can gain a bunch of frenzy charges would be able to run/leap/warp around a map and draw out matches. If everyone draws against him he would be at the bottom of the ladder and other people would advance since they can kill other builds.

On the topic of tone I agree and hope no one takes my directness as hostility or thinks im being condescending because im not trying to be.

i'm kinda surprised to see people mention demi as tank, i didnt even know that he is a tank build. he always get one shotted to blast main mines. thanks to crazy damage output values, tank builds are not a problem now, but in future if in pvp community there will be strict regulations, tank builds are going to be uncounterable. the only way to deal with them are mines, aoe shotgun mechanics or stuff that bypasses proper T values like barrage. and every counter i mentioned here are hot topic from what i've seen and at the top of the "nerf them nerf to ground" list of everyone.

Full tanks in sarn are not a problem, if you realise you can't kill them, you can eassily leave them. However in 1v1s when you meet them as a new thing, you most likely lose a round before you knew you should have gone draw, and at that point you might have already lost the whole match. Also draws are awfully boring, so tanks can progress well on ladder, and is actually a problem there.

Also don't compare guardian killing of that build to pvp in any way. Through CWDTs and CWSs it makes a ton of pvp formula bypassing, thats why it can do decent damage if you proc it.

Markusz, on point as usual

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Márkusz wrote:

Full tanks in sarn are not a problem, if you realise you can't kill them, you can eassily leave them. However in 1v1s when you meet them as a new thing, you most likely lose a round before you knew you should have gone draw, and that point you might have already lost the whole match. Also draws are awfully boring, so tanks can progress well on ladder, and is actually a problem there.

Also don't compare guardian killing of that build to pvp in any way. Through CWDTs and CWSs it makes a ton of pvp formula bypassing, thats why it can do decent damage if you proc it.

A new player will most likely always die to a new build they havnt experienced before it dosnt matter if its a tank or any other build, thats not too much of a concern. I am only concerned for experienced PvPers and if I saw Demi on his tank character I would try to go all in on 1 round to score a win and then draw the rest. Sure draws are boring but its also boring for the tank and they get a loss every time they draw. the only way that character deals damage is if its attacked and the damage it deals can be avoided by block and dodge or good mechanics. Are you really sure that without the the OP damages we want to exclude there is no way to kill him? Remember we're not trying to find perfect balance at this point but just make it so that more builds are viable rather than EA/secondary damages or self cast trigger builds.

If you think he is too OP what do you feel needs to be toned down so that other builds have a chance?

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Ahfack wrote:

Markusz, on point as usual

Would you mind adding more to the discussion? I asked you a few questions that would help clear some things up if answered. If you dont have any answers thats fine you can say so but comments like this dont add much and could be misconstrued as ganging up on someone in what has so far been a decent discussion.

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Dethklok wrote:

Isn't most of his damage from trigger gems?

Yes

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Dethklok wrote:

In a 1v1 if I didn't attack him at all does he have a way to kill me?

No, not if you kite around all day.

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Dethklok wrote:

Ive seen his character do guardians and it while it is tanky the damage isnt anywhere close to other builds and I can't imagine the character is very fast. Im sure a raider who can gain a bunch of frenzy charges would be able to run/leap/warp around a map and draw out matches. If everyone draws against him he would be at the bottom of the ladder and other people would advance since they can kill other builds.

Deth, I see your point but IMO it's completely short-sighted. IMO, allowing builds that literally make people "movement skill" around for 20 minutes is no better than the 1 shot meta we're in now. You're going from a 1-shot meta to a no-shot troll meta. Not the best way of putting it, but you get the gist.

I think you might underestimate the trolls in this game. There are tons of people in this game that get off on just wasting time of others or getting a rise out of people, I'm sure you could think of a few bearded "streamers" or 6l tempest HonneSagal toons in the past that solidify my claim. They don't care if they are ranked or not. They love fucking with people because they don't have enough going on in their own lives, so they turn to the interwebzzz. I would rather shove silverware into my face (interwebz hyperbole) or just go do something else with my time (realtalk) than have a "match" where I have to avoid someone for 20 minutes.

Focusing solely on the insane damage dealers/aoe overlap will leave us with just as unhealthy meta as we're in right now. It will be an unkillable tank meta where regular people/real players wind up giving them wins because they don't want to waste their time trying to actually play a game.

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Márkusz wrote:

Full tanks in sarn are not a problem, if you realise you can't kill them, you can eassily leave them. However in 1v1s when you meet them as a new thing, you most likely lose a round before you knew you should have gone draw, and that point you might have already lost the whole match. Also draws are awfully boring, so tanks can progress well on ladder, and is actually a problem there.

Also don't compare guardian killing of that build to pvp in any way. Through CWDTs and CWSs it makes a ton of pvp formula bypassing, thats why it can do decent damage if you proc it.

With no intentions whatsoever or any connotations associated with ganging up on someone, I completely agree with everything you said sir, well done. Keep up the great work. I think most of your posts are 100% accurate.

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Dethklok wrote:

Are you really sure that without the the OP damages we want to exclude there is no way to kill him?

As there is no solid breakpoint where from we consider a build troll tank, we must create one. And my suggestion is still that if a tank is able to kill it's clone in a mirror match with little to no running around it can be allowed. Some cheesing exceptions must be handled, but we must see them when they show.

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Márkusz wrote:

As there is no solid breakpoint where from we consider a build troll tank, we must create one. And my suggestion is still that if a tank is able to kill it's clone in a mirror match with little to no running around it can be allowed. Some cheesing exceptions must be handled, but we must see them when they show.

I guess if we had some volunteers who didn't mind speccing characters for this purpose it would work. I've got a few characters and a lot of gear to copy most builds but not enough to test everyone who may want to enter.

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Ahfack wrote:

Deth, I see your point but IMO it's completely short-sighted. IMO, allowing builds that literally make people "movement skill" around for 20 minutes is no better than the 1 shot meta we're in now. You're going from a 1-shot meta to a no-shot troll meta. Not the best way of putting it, but you get the gist.

I think you might underestimate the trolls in this game. There are tons of people in this game that get off on just wasting time of others or getting a rise out of people, I'm sure you could think of a few bearded "streamers" or 6l tempest HonneSagal toons in the past that solidify my claim. They don't care if they are ranked or not. They love fucking with people because they don't have enough going on in their own lives, so they turn to the interwebzzz. I would rather shove silverware into my face (interwebz hyperbole) or just go do something else with my time (realtalk) than have a "match" where I have to avoid someone for 20 minutes.

With a player or Bot run ladder system you wouldn't have to randomly que with whoever though. You can pick matches or we could set criteria for who you can match with and if someone's rank gets too low due to them trolling we could just drop them from the ladder completely. Id would rather give people who want to PvP legitimately as tanks a chance to do so as I don't think we have enough experience in the community to say what is or isn't a troll tank build or what simply can't be dealt with. I know I theorycraft builds all the time that I haven't seen people using yet (partly because why be anything other than pathfinder atm) but we can also go with Markusz idea and be a little more harsh to the tank builds and then scale back that ruling that they must be able to kill a copy of themselves after we see what people come up with when a new ruleset is established.

Ultimately though whoever wants to take charge of this idea, set up a discord and make a way for use to keep track of our own ladder is going to be the one who has the final say on the rules. I can help out here and there but I dont have the time or the know how to do something like that.

It's true troll tanks, you simply ignore them. I don't post about Demi because he knows I ignore him, we both acknowledge it's a waste of time for me to hit him and for him to go near me.

Rupenus, ya...tank builds are a problem especially when you're queued against one. Because you use Blast Rain mines and they 1 shot everything doesn't validate your points. Other people are facing these turds in 1v1 and are forced to go afk til the match draws out, try to cheese a kill with EA overlap or just leave. All the trolls know they are trolls though, you can sit there and just talk to them or remove your weapon and punch them etc... guys like Dismantle/Dukan/Demi/Sixpacks aren't delusional, they know what they are doing. If someone like Fire_Slide made a troll build on the other hand, he might legitimately defend it.


As far as balance goes only a few of us (Deth for example) know how far this game has come. We have much better itemization in PvP then we've ever had. Brass dome, Death's Door etc.. were looooong over due. Problems surface when mechanically things get so strong that only playing that particular build can beat itself and no amount of item swaps or strategy can overcome it. We had RF back in the day, it was counter-able by smart movement, applying degens and reducing resistance of that player. What are your legitimate options to handle the Zerphi/Scolds meta? EA has counter movement,counter plays, options...the arena's themselves limit these opportunities in ridiculous ways making them basically non existent. Pathfinder itself just has far faaaaar too much going for it when it comes to PvP and what matters here. If your answer to balance is to stay off screen, well that's bull shit. If your answer is to play mines so you can 1 shot someone instead of actually dealing with the match up...that's bull shit too.


I've said it before, this game is in a better spot then its ever been. Even Ascendancy was a great implementation contrary to what anyone else thinks. If you simply rectify a handful of issues that are universally known among us all, you'd better PvP as a whole. Nothing has to be black and white, melee vs ranged yada yada...it's this is legitimately fucked up and by fixing it you better PvP. That's the kind of balance that has to be done in this game, looking at the big picture.

Nothing needs to be proven at this point,

-Scolds/Zerphi synergy has to go if PvP is going to go anywhere.
-Cws/Cwdt/Cwc have to be used more for utility and less for damage
-Skills that overlap AoE should have their damage modified with this in mind, it's not a what if it overlaps its...a simple matter of it will and it shouldn't do the damage of 4++++ hits at once while other skills simply do 1 hit.
-Auto movement via Cwdt Flame dash/Lightning warp is stupid