PVP RULES....

Liege of the Primordial from elementalist should not be used imo, having golems immortal to elemental damage just erase possibilities to any elem build against golem builds.

A possibly OP Writhing jar flask build (which doesn't make too much sense in the current oneshot meta, and would only surface after fixing op dps builds) theorycraft would be a tank built around leech. Slayer, overkill leech, and leech isn't removed at full life. If you are familiar with non-instant leech mechanics, then you know it is possible to pull off a build for 1v1s, where you stack a lot of pve-ish damage combos, curses, shock, EE, etc, and a hard hitting skill, combined with the slayer nodes can achieve a 90+ seconds leech buff, investing into leech nodes practically giving 35%-ish constant "life regen". Each round at the start pop worms, apply debuffs to them, kill them with a big overkill hit, and you are set for the whole round with leech. Since only need 1 flask use per round, 2 flasks are enough, even without pathfinder. Only works as life based tho. Other than the leech Slayer also gives good AoE, 20% cull, onslaught, etc.

I wrote this as a good example for a build that would surface during a meta-change, and very likely unaffected by the first wave, needing a nerf in the second wave. It has niche components, not really fitting pvp, making it not intuitive.


In general about tanks, the generic rule for excluding should be that in a mirror match with themselves, they must be able to kill themselves. So tanks that are able to deal good damage and score kills directly are allowed, but those that rely the opponents proccing their defense skills, running around, usually failing the above test are not allowed. Regen, or other abilities shouldn't be tied to a flat fix value. Most aegis chars would fail this rule, but some that are using an active skill instead of counter gems only could pass, if they are able to bypass the same amount of tankyness they have. It's a good measure of determining if a tank is abusive or not.


Rupenus brings a good point, there will always remain some amount of imbalance, and all people see balance differently, from their own perspective. BUT, even you mention items and builds in comparsion to each other, generally one stronger than the other, that are heavily arguable to be called imbalanced or not, and I personally would disagree with some, but my point is not to explain my opinions here.

Balance is very tough for players, but also for developers, so players must be part of it. Developers lack practise, knowledge of mechanics discovered and perfected by players, how certain builds counter others, what can be worked around with swaps and what is unavoidable. We should work together with them, we must name controversial things through suggestions, and they should review them objectively.

For just our planned events, I would suggest picking a very limiting, small subset of builds to contest. Excluding many thought to be op, controversial items and build, would inherently favor some people more than others, and discourage players who need to remake a completely new build instead of their well practised usual one, while some people could stick to it. However if we make everyone change to a not so popular build subset would be more fair, and could be managed more easily, and would more easily create a better balanced inside those events.

My more specific suggestion for this is the Blond brigade events, melee scions only. Melee is not a musthave, but scion is a very good class, still allowing a good diversity, but removing many problematic other classes, and most of us already have one, usually not specced due to their unpopularity. Even vhlad's totem-only joke makes more sense than all of those detailed banlists for this type of events.

Thanks man, great write-up. As better illustrated by Markusz, writhing jar has no place in pvp. It brings possibilities to pvp that can only negatively impact it.

Re: Tanks. Yes, they must have an active skill possible of killing an opponent. A 4l glacial cascade mine setup does not count. Lol

Blond Brigade was a Great idea too, Markusz. I wish I had a scion in the mid-90's hahah. Maybe I'll level a scion up a bit further.

yea I would have played if I had a scion.

"

Márkusz wrote:

Spoiler

A possibly OP Writhing jar flask build (which doesn't make too much sense in the current oneshot meta, and would only surface after fixing op dps builds) theorycraft would be a tank built around leech. Slayer, overkill leech, and leech isn't removed at full life. If you are familiar with non-instant leech mechanics, then you know it is possible to pull off a build for 1v1s, where you stack a lot of pve-ish damage combos, curses, shock, EE, etc, and a hard hitting skill, combined with the slayer nodes can achieve a 90+ seconds leech buff, investing into leech nodes practically giving 35%-ish constant "life regen". Each round at the start pop worms, apply debuffs to them, kill them with a big overkill hit, and you are set for the whole round with leech. Since only need 1 flask use per round, 2 flasks are enough, even without pathfinder. Only works as life based tho. Other than the leech Slayer also gives good AoE, 20% cull, onslaught, etc.

I wrote this as a good example for a build that would surface during a meta-change, and very likely unaffected by the first wave, needing a nerf in the second wave. It has niche components, not really fitting pvp, making it not intuitive.


In general about tanks, the generic rule for excluding should be that in a mirror match with themselves, they must be able to kill themselves. So tanks that are able to deal good damage and score kills directly are allowed, but those that rely the opponents proccing their defense skills, running around, usually failing the above test are not allowed. Regen, or other abilities shouldn't be tied to a flat fix value. Most aegis chars would fail this rule, but some that are using an active skill instead of counter gems only could pass, if they are able to bypass the same amount of tankyness they have. It's a good measure of determining if a tank is abusive or not.


Rupenus brings a good point, there will always remain some amount of imbalance, and all people see balance differently, from their own perspective. BUT, even you mention items and builds in comparsion to each other, generally one stronger than the other, that are heavily arguable to be called imbalanced or not, and I personally would disagree with some, but my point is not to explain my opinions here.

Balance is very tough for players, but also for developers, so players must be part of it. Developers lack practise, knowledge of mechanics discovered and perfected by players, how certain builds counter others, what can be worked around with swaps and what is unavoidable. We should work together with them, we must name controversial things through suggestions, and they should review them objectively.

For just our planned events, I would suggest picking a very limiting, small subset of builds to contest. Excluding many thought to be op, controversial items and build, would inherently favor some people more than others, and discourage players who need to remake a completely new build instead of their well practised usual one, while some people could stick to it. However if we make everyone change to a not so popular build subset would be more fair, and could be managed more easily, and would more easily create a better balanced inside those events.

My more specific suggestion for this is the Blond brigade events, melee scions only. Melee is not a musthave, but scion is a very good class, still allowing a good diversity, but removing many problematic other classes, and most of us already have one, usually not specced due to their unpopularity. Even vhlad's totem-only joke makes more sense than all of those detailed banlists for this type of events.

Thanks for the writhing jar example we need more feedback like this to advance the discussion. It certainly sounds strong but I would save off removing the jar from PvP until the second round of balance, meaning we should let it become a problem and see how creative people can get when dealing with it as I assume there are a lot of other OP builds that would come to light after many of these suggestions are put into play.

On the topic of the "Blond Brigade" If you have the time I think you should start it up again :D maybe host a few events EU and NA and see how things go. Since its your event you have free reign to make the rules as you please. Maybe someone else would like to host PvP events with some of the rules we have laid out in this thread and we can compare results between the Blonde Brigade events and the new ruleset we have here that won't limit classes at first. (I have a strong feeling that Pathfinder will get removed from the latter even though)

If anyone needs help leveling a scion just PM me I can give you wps boss kills whatever, were in standard so getting a scion to 90 should be pretty easy Id like to see the blond brigade be a regular thing. I strongly suggest we set up a discord channel for PvPers which would make organizing such an event a lot easier.

"

Simplesim45 wrote:

You can get a lot more regen now than you could before. New amulet base, that perandus belt, etc. It stacks up really fast. All that without necessarily gimping your character.

Umbilicus Immortalis which gives 2% regen comes with the cost that your flasks do not apply to you, has no damage mods for normal builds and no resistance. Vs something like this

Shaper's Seed gives 2% regen but has no life, ES, damage or resistances vs something like this

Fragile Bloom gives 2% regen at the cost of taking 10% increased damage and again no life or other defences, no damage mods VS something like this

Boot enchant gives 2% regen at the cost of 10% ele pen

I understand you would prefer it if we had our life pool and when you took damage it was there permanently, trust me when I say I would love to gut POE and redesign most of it to fit the style of game I like best but we have to work with what we've got and while you may say that regen is OP I think it already has a lot of diminishing returns built in. I just can't see it being an issues that needs to be addressed at this time.

"

Alpha_Dragon wrote:

You guys should really put that word leech yall throwing around to rest, we all know there's no leech in pvp and basing ideas around it as a primary source of healing is a terrible idea.

Why would we ignore a viable option that I have successfully used to counter beacon of corruption? I understand people may not like certain mechanics in PvP but saying there's no leech when people can actually use leech is just silly.

Dethklok, he didn't mean the unique amulet, there is a new base item type with iirc up to 1.6% regen per second.

^ Thats right I keep forgetting about some of the new bases, but lets say someone had a well crafted amulet on the new regen base (they still can't get legacy rolls), would stacking that much regen really make a build that other builds have no options of dealing with? In my mind you could just make a build that has a reasonable amount of regen and good mobility and dance around the super regen tank since they can't possibly have good damage good mobility and insane regen at the same time.

The point was, that super tanks are available since a long time, and more and more things get added to the game they can improve their builds with, essence crafts, new item mods (132% ES, 55 int). Even if an average tank is managable for most builds, gear scales it pretty well, so top-end full tank focused ones, like demi, can be hard to bring down, and their damage is not negligible.

"

Márkusz wrote:

The point was, that super tanks are available since a long time, and more and more things get added to the game they can improve their builds with, essence crafts, new item mods (132% ES, 55 int). Even if an average tank is managable for most builds, gear scales it pretty well, so top-end full tank focused ones, like demi, can be hard to bring down, and their damage is not negligible.

Fair enough but I think the purpose for this thread is trying to get rid of the most OP things first, Everyone complains about EA and unavoidable damages, Traps/mine and 1 shots I dont think ive seen anyone complain too much about Demi. Im sure Mulla would have make a thread and called him a bunch of names by now if that was the case :D

"

Dethklok wrote:

Fair enough but I think the purpose for this thread is trying to get rid of the most OP things first, Everyone complains about EA and unavoidable damages, Traps/mine and 1 shots I dont think ive seen anyone complain too much about Demi. Im sure Mulla would have make a thread and called him a bunch of names by now if that was the case :D

As you exclude the obvious nono op dps combos, which don't need too much of a discussion as most of us agrees, op defense will become more of a problem, and should be also discussed.