PVP RULES....

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Simplesim45 wrote:

I disagree. Aegis is a problem. Tempest shield just makes it worse.

I am curious at when aegis is not manageable without tempest/no t value skills and es regen. As a 2h melee, slow heavy hits always bypassed the shield after sometime. Granted you need to be able to tank the aegis attacks for few seconds or/and get block pen.

I know offerings + aegis or other combination of new skills+aegis is also fucking broken too but when we only had aegis + tempest around, only tempest was making shit horrible for 2h.
(well maybe discharger aegis were op, but now discharge is dead.)

Don t know the specifics of other classes vs aegis tho, don t mind banning aegis all together too, just wondering what make it broken without tempest/offering/no t value skills.

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Head_Less wrote:

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Simplesim45 wrote:

I disagree. Aegis is a problem. Tempest shield just makes it worse.

I am curious at when aegis is not manageable without tempest/no t value skills and es regen. As a 2h melee, slow heavy hits always bypassed the shield after sometime. Granted you need to be able to tank the aegis attacks for few seconds or/and get block pen.

I know offerings + aegis or other combination of new skills+aegis is also fucking broken too but when we only had aegis + tempest around, only tempest was making shit horrible for 2h.
(well maybe discharger aegis were op, but now discharge is dead.)

Don t know the specifics of other classes vs aegis tho, don t mind banning aegis all together too, just wondering what make it broken without tempest/offering/no t value skills.

Any skill that uses many small hits gets immediately fucked over by that.

Ball lightning, incinerate, storm call, etc. Mostly casters but a lot of other builds too. ST, lacerate, the list is long enough that it's a problem.

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Dethklok wrote:

As for Leech I am under the impression that bloodless or an "enemies cannot leech life from you" corruption would be a solid counter?

Ya, vinktar's is bullshit but there are swaps like:



and bloodless on tree, which is a great node to have anyway, that nullify it pretty well, and vs. someone that uses vinktar you traditionally only need capped lightning res against them because they're probably not doing that much other types of ele damage unles they are using a call of the brotherhood.

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Dethklok wrote:

Im wondering what builds use writhing jar outside of HOT that you feel are too OP while using the flask?

It's not really about what builds use them right now, it's about what it's capable of. The writhing jar has no place in pvp. If we're trying to asshole/idiot-proof pvp as much as possible, I believe that item should not be allowed.

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Dethklok wrote:

Also I would say beacon of corruption is iffy. Sure it can be really strong but only against non CI builds and secondly im pretty sure you can leech from minions I know i've stood in an srs cloud as a life build with arc + vinktars and lololololed all over some srs guy in the arena.

^This is from a video where vhlad and I were doing some testing with 1 minion of his. He had 0q lvl 17 gems, with 8 empty jewel sockets on his tree. I have overcapped chaos res and 10k life.

If they only way to counter it is "be ci/git gud/use vinktar" or offscreen them, then no thank you! :D

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Simplesim45 wrote:

Aegis is a problem. Tempest shield just makes it worse.

PREEEEEEEEACH!!!!!!!!

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Simplesim45 wrote:

Spoiler

Old man's fire trap build had such ridiculous life regen from what I remember (might not be him). Some of the melee guys stacking the living hell out of regen who can come in, fight you for a few seconds and leap slam out to regen to full really fast and just keep doing that over and over.

Healing mechanics in general are just really unhealthy. Leech should be the cornerstone of healing (with only a single charge of vinktar. Speaking of which, might wanna limit vinktars to 1?). That way you're forced to engage in the fight in order to heal up. If you want to heal out of combat, it would come down to flasks.

If you look at ES for example, the drawback of ES regen not starting if you've taken damage recently is a lot more interesting. It's something you can play around with. Apply a weak ignite to give yourself time between pokes, etc. It's interactive.

Stupid ass fucking regen isn't interactive. It's like "Oh I played like a retard? Doesn't matter!"

If the player who has a lot of regen has to escape to from an engagement I would think not being able to catch them and deal damage would be a fault in the other players build. I have a 2h character with over 1k regen and its never felt OP to me especially when you have temp chains and frost bomb + degen effects to deal with it. I also used to have a CI character who had about 1300 regen on top of the ES recharge and the people I used to PvP with like Mulla Shadowthefall ect found ways to deal with it before frost bomb was in the game. I would think any build that's going far above 1500 regen a second is hindering itself in one way or another. I remember Dismantle and Danialdukan (think that was the name) both had really tanky regen character but their damage was laughable and under the rules were talking about where a draw would = a loss for both people I can't imagine high regen builds being unbeatable.

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Simplesim45 wrote:

Any skill that uses many small hits gets immediately fucked over by that.

Ball lightning, incinerate, storm call, etc. Mostly casters but a lot of other builds too. ST, lacerate, the list is long enough that it's a problem.

I used to play cyclone and vs aegis I would swap to something like heavy strike, I know quite a few people who like myself would carry almost a full inventory worth of gear on the them while PvPing. Investing solely in 1 skill is a mistake imo since so many things have hard counters. For a build to be well rounded you have to have swappable items/skills and considering how much damage people can do these days im not convinced aegis should be on the chopping block just yet.

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Ahfack wrote:

It's not really about what builds use them right now, it's about what it's capable of. The writhing jar has no place in pvp. If we're trying to asshole/idiot-proof pvp as much as possible, I believe that item should not be allowed.

So what are they capable of? If we're trying to make rules we should do so with good reason.

I wouldn't start trying to hammer out every little detail right off the bat. There is such a thing as balance through imbalance which was one of the great things about Starcraft. There are a lot of OP things in starcraft but each race has its own OP thing/s it can do, so my OP stuff counters your OP stuff but other OP stuff counters me ect. I have a hard time imagining writhing jar is/can be as OP as something as secondary damages unless you're aware of a use for it that makes it so.

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Ahfack wrote:

Spoiler

^This is from a video where vhlad and I were doing some testing with 1 minion of his. He had 0q lvl 17 gems, with 8 empty jewel sockets on his tree. I have overcapped chaos res and 10k life.

If they only way to counter it is "be ci/git gud/use vinktar" or offscreen them, then no thank you! :D

Thats not a great example, you're standing still and not using any kind of leech or lgoh. If you were running around he would have to cast more than 1 srs obviously but you would also have more minions to leech from. Overcapped chaos res dosnt matter since he's not an occultist and you can always throw a melee totem at the caster so that the minions have to split up more. You've had no problems swapping to EA in the past so what's the difference of swapping to something else thats better suited for dealing with the minion/chaos cloud combo? Dont they also give you flask charges when killed or am I mistaken because even a non legacy vinktars would help a lot and you could get multiple uses per round. The other reason im not too worried about those builds is because there are so many CI characters these days the person relying on beacon of corruption would never make it too far up the ladder. I still think there are a lot of things that people can use in PvP that arnt being taken advantage of yet simply because we have too small a community to advance the meta at any reasonable rate.

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Dethklok wrote:

**stuff**

You can get a lot more regen now than you could before. New amulet base, that perandus belt, etc. It stacks up really fast. All that without necessarily gimping your character.


I agree that filling up your inventory with counter items is pretty much a staple, but it doesn't make aegis ok. Especially legacy aegis. You gotta think that while YOU'RE using counter items, so can the other guy.

That means I could anti curse flask for an easy escape and heal up to full from regen alone, then when I know you're out of flasks, I come barging in and start spamming my instant health flasks.

Healing is bad. Period. It's just so damn detrimental to PvP as a whole. GM D2 fights had no pots. All the competitive PvP games of today; League, dota, Hots, battlerite, etc. Damage sticks in all of those and it makes the whole difference. Little to not 1 shots, damage that sticks...suddenly you're left with a match that requires player skill.

lol deth the point of my example was to show the un-q'd-de-leveled, mostly un-scaled damage that 1 minion can do on a life based character. Yes I know overcapped chaos res doesn't matter, I was trying to illustrate the point that I had more than enough chaos res. I can use herald of ash/ea/spectral throw against them, I'm not saying there's not possibilities, I'm saying that it's just as OP as vortex was and you see how bad GGG nerfed that shit hahaha

You guys should really put that word leech yall throwing around to rest, we all know there's no leech in pvp and basing ideas around it as a primary source of healing is a terrible idea.

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Breadroll wrote:

The writhing jar has no place in pvp.

That's a dangerous way of thinking, unlike vinktar and that granite flask I can't remember the name of, it actually introduces a unique function that a build could utilize. It just so happens that the current builds based on it are laggy as hell and very crashy and probably broken.

While we're talking about beacon, shouldn't we consider temu's and necrotic aegis? It seems way more broken when you can't even play the odds with BCR. At least you can leech through beacon in some cases and if they kill you after you kill them you get a free refill for your efforts.

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Ahfack wrote:

...I'm saying that it's just as OP as vortex was...

Hey now, I take that as an insult. You couldn't even walk out of the vortex's AoE before dying when I used it on my traps :P

First of all, keep it simple. PLEASE. keep it simple.

don't expect all things to get "balanced" from your view, there has to be still imbalances, they are called "winning condition/situation". you try to bash(i dont wanna give names cause multiple dudes do that) everything that creates any winning condition to all the builds you have done in the past. winning condition is something you can do nothing about it once it's created by other player, you lose the round. there is a difference between imbalance and winning condition that doesnt mean a build/thing is OP. Flameblast one shot is a way of winning the game, but creating that condition is fairly hard on the other hand EA aoe shotgun is imbalance. Rumi leg leg, 55 block for 10 seconds is imbalance, dying sun is not. dying sun is filling the map with whatever projectile you use for a while. and creates a "winning condition" for high dps ranged characters(if the opponent in open area) all you gotta do is not beeing stupid and defending where you are, be careful withyour timings, and stay behind an obstacle in map. for example put bear traps around you etc.

we can go nowhere like this. everybody browses all their pvp experiences from past and wants to destroy all the causes to the conditions that make them lose where they had no chance to change the result with the given build/gear/whatever skill they use. this is not imbalance. this is just pvp, doing pvp things.

you shouldn't let those conditions to happen. if you cant approach a fireball aoe build, that's your problem, that is not IMBA. if the fireball aoe shotguns and not blockable, that is IMBAlance. some stuff might still one shot in a "balanced game", but creating that situation must be hard and people must have things to counter that and that one shotter build has tools to get away from counters too. this is what pvp is about.

simple,

no legacy flasks, leg rumi, leg vinktar, zerphi, you name it.
no aoe shotgun EA and for example minefield mines too, i agree. it's not aoe shotgun actually, because blast rain "projectiles" dont hit the ground at the same time but they have some intervals between each other, the opponent gets hit by multiple projectiles in a very short time. but, i know what you mean, so i agree.
no unblockable stuff since we dont have good damage overriding values from GGG; i'd even agree on keeping HoT in the ring but those 5% per ele damage per jewel you use jewels completely makes it broken.
Aegis is ok, but 20k ES, 40k armor builds are not. Anything that doesnt attack and sits and does default attack, we can simple kick them out from our pvp ring, aegis is ok for me.

pleease. PLEASE separate the imbalance and winning condition from each other.

you guys just sound like someone who wants to nerf "queen" in chess game. OMG THIS SHIET MOVES AROUND ENTIRE CHESS BOARD NERF NERF NERF. no, it just wins the game, if you let that happen. otherwise the game wouldnt reflect any skill of players. you can't put a deep strategy while playing with only pawns.

thats why i always insisted that, players shouldnt be a part of balance team.

Only 1 rule is needed:

Ancestral Bond is required.