Mechanical Questions Thread

Just one question: The cloud part of Caustic Arrow is not considered "attack" so it does not get improved by the new Frenzy charges change, right?

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intre wrote:

Just one question: The cloud part of Caustic Arrow is not considered "attack" so it does not get improved by the new Frenzy charges change, right?

It does, the wording is 'more damage with attack skills', not 'more attack damage with skills'. It's still a generic damage bonus, it just applies exclusively to skills that have the 'attack' tag.

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raics wrote:

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intre wrote:

Just one question: The cloud part of Caustic Arrow is not considered "attack" so it does not get improved by the new Frenzy charges change, right?

It does, the wording is 'more damage with attack skills', not 'more attack damage with skills'. It's still a generic damage bonus, it just applies exclusively to skills that have the 'attack' tag.

I know it has the "attack" tag but I think it only applies to the hit part. In example, you can not leech from the cloud damage. Also "attack" modifiers do not improve the dps of the cloud.

From the Wiki, Damage over Time:

Natively modifiers to attack damage (i.e. weapon damage, melee damage, etc.) and spell damage do not apply to damage over time effects unless specifically stated so, as observed on skills like Contagion, Essence Drain or Vortex.


Just wanted to be sure about this.

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intre wrote:

I know it has the "attack" tag but I think it only applies to the hit part. In example, you can not leech from the cloud damage. Also "attack" modifiers do not improve the dps of the cloud.

I meant the gem tag, not the internal damage type tags. It works the same way as Bronn which has 'increased damage with movement skills', so if the gem has 'movement' tag up there you get a generic damage increase.

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raics wrote:

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intre wrote:

I know it has the "attack" tag but I think it only applies to the hit part. In example, you can not leech from the cloud damage. Also "attack" modifiers do not improve the dps of the cloud.

I meant the gem tag, not the internal damage type tags. It works the same way as Bronn which has 'increased damage with movement skills', so if the gem has 'movement' tag up there you get a generic damage increase.

There's a difference. An attack skill like Cyclone does not have 2 separate damage values like Caustic Arrow does, that's why attack damage modifiers do not apply to the caustic cloud.

Anyway, in previous post was copied a text from a Dev, so I'll suppose that Frenzy charges will work with the caustic cloud. I'm saying "I'll suppose" because I'm not sure even if it comes from a dev. I'll test the dps after patch in my CA Scion.

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intre wrote:

There's a difference. An attack skill like Cyclone does not have 2 separate damage values like Caustic Arrow does, that's why attack damage modifiers do not apply to the caustic cloud.

Sure there is, but mods that are worded like that do not make that distinction, the 'attack' keyword is next to 'skill', not 'damage', that means it defines the gem tag instead of damage type. The skill can do any kind of damage, as long as it has the specified gem tag the bonus will apply.

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raics wrote:

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intre wrote:

There's a difference. An attack skill like Cyclone does not have 2 separate damage values like Caustic Arrow does, that's why attack damage modifiers do not apply to the caustic cloud.

Sure there is, but mods that are worded like that do not make that distinction, the 'attack' keyword is next to 'skill', not 'damage', that means it defines the gem tag instead of damage type. The skill can do any kind of damage, as long as it has the specified gem tag the bonus will apply.

Open Path of Building. Create a Caustic Arrow char. Take the tree to Graceful Assault node, which gives a 16% increased Attack Damage. Select and unselect the node and check if the cloud dps of the CA changes. I just tested this: it does not change. That's because though the CA gem has the "attack" tag, the cloud part is not an attack, so attack damage modifiers do not apply to it.

BTW it does change the hit dps of the skill, though it's irrelevant.

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

GGG_Neon already confirmed on page 2 of the latest dev manifesto thread that:

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GGG_Neon wrote:

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I saw someone mention the DoTs, for example. Given that frenzy charges only work with attacks now, do they improve the damages of Caustic Arrow's cloud ? Poisons ? Bleed ? I know they do with Trickster now, but in general ? That is something huge to take into consideration.

The current stat is "x% More Damage with Attack Skills" meaning it would apply to damaging ailments, Caustic Arrow.

so yes, frenzy charge is still awesome for CA's cloud damage.

Maybe this needs some clarification, because Caustic Arrow is not an ailment.

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intre wrote:

16% increased Attack Damage

Ok, let's try again.

16% increased Attack Damage
16% increased Damage with Attack Skills

In one of those mods 'attack' defines 'damage' so the bonus applies only to attack damage basetype. That means it works on the initial hit made with EA, CA or IB but not to clouds or explosions which do not deal attack damage.

In the other one, 'attack' defines 'skill' and damage is undefined, which means it's a generic damage bonus that works on any and all damage inflicted by a skill that has the correct type (gem tag).