[3.0] NeverSink's ♣ INDEPTH Tornado&Archer Guide ♣ Beginner friendly ♣ Rapid clear ♣ All bosses

Hi guys, thanks NeverSink for the really welll written build.

I m currently level 62 so it's time I do the lab ...
I would like to take pathfinder but I can't decide what 4 nodes to take ?
Can someone give me some advice please ?

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zeracoa64 wrote:

Hi guys, thanks NeverSink for the really welll written build.

I m currently level 62 so it's time I do the lab ...
I would like to take pathfinder but I can't decide what 4 nodes to take ?
Can someone give me some advice please ?

Cruel lab? did you not do normal?

A TS pathfinder should be able to do Endgame lab as well. So, eventually you will be able to get all 8 points.

first 4.
Natures adrenaline is a great ease of use benefit from normal on. If you are in cruel, and didn't already get it. Its still good, but its super effective for its movespeed, before you have full access to movespeed boots/flasks, and passives.
Master surgeon is the all around solid, go to for any pathfinder. "removes" bleeding frees up 2 flask spots usually. Most pathfinders run 1 life flask at this point. (or none.) And without the need for "staunching" OR "surgeons", can make that an "of heat" to remove freeze.
Charge on crit is also, all around nice for keeping your flasks full. (best if you have decent flasks. uniques its godly, but still great if you have a nice "granite of iron skin" as well.)
thats the "standard" first two.
if your flasks are not great, you may not be in a rush for master surgeon. Vet bowyer, or master herbalist might be good. Vet bowyer is a massive damage boost to elemental builds. (also gives charge gain on kill.) While master herbalist is a massive damage boost in the form of poison on phys/chaos builds.
Vet bowyer stands mostly as just a damage boost. not something to rush for generally, has it does not really introduce new mechanics.
Mater herbalist however, is build defining. 100% poison on hit is huge, and game changing. You will want this asap, if phys/poison was your build plan.



Natures boon/master alch is sortof the lesser tread path.
Elem DR on natures boon, is largely late game useful, for reflect. Charge gain outside combat is very nice for refilling when running from point to point, and/or disengaging from bosses. particularly izaro were you can't just portal out. (decoy totem/blink arrow, buys you time to recharge.)
20% chance to not use flask charges. eh. its frequent but so unreliable. more likely to make you think, you missed that flask, and cuase you to drink it again, then actually provide more uses..
natures boon is not something to rush all around.
Master alch is much more desirable. Immune to elemental status. so good. again, get asap if you have vessal of vinktar. Also, means you no longer need "of heat" on flasks. Elem damage is ok, nice on elem builds.

you are hardcore, so you definitely want the defensive benefits of master surgeon or master alch first.
And as such, you may end up wanting your 8 points in both, ignoring the damage boosts of vet bowyer, and master herbalist."

Thanks Casia,that was really helpful !
I did not do normal lab yet since I was not sure what ascendancy take yesterday.
I m playing softcore but I really want to reach endgame this league (did atziri last league, I will try end game lab and at least t15 or even t16 maps this time. :) ).
I m really bad with flasks so I guess playing a pathfinder will help me improve in this area.

I will take master Surgeon then if I don't need more damage right away probably master Alchemist.
You mentioned to get rid off acrobatics but you still have it. Can you explain why ? Is basalt better than granite even with pathfinder buff ?

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zeracoa64 wrote:

Thanks Casia,that was really helpful !
I did not do normal lab yet since I was not sure what ascendancy take yesterday.
I m playing softcore but I really want to reach endgame this league (did atziri last league, I will try end game lab and at least t15 or even t16 maps this time. :) ).
I m really bad with flasks so I guess playing a pathfinder will help me improve in this area.

I will take master Surgeon then if I don't need more damage right away probably master Alchemist.
You mentioned to get rid off acrobatics but you still have it. Can you explain why ? Is basalt better than granite even with pathfinder buff ?

Basalt is 20% phys DR. great for a normal ranger. esp since acrobatics hits armor/block, but will ignore the dr. bypasses.
A pathfinder does increase that 20% DR, by 15, 20 or 50% depending on 6pt,8pt, and if can go into witch territory, as well. 24% dr is nice.

But, granite flasks scale so well for pathfinders. 3000 base armor, and then of ironskin. 90-100% armor during flask effect. Both the 3000armor, AND the 100% ironskin gain pathfinders flask effect.
for a 20% pathfinder, 3600armor, + 120% armor during flask effect. gaining 7920 armor from the flask alone. And the 120% is global. (6000 for a nonpathfinder or witch.) I find it not uncommon for a pathfinder to run around with perma granites, and 15-25k armor.
Doubly so with Rumi's. As IT also gives block. which ALSO gains 20% with pathfinder. (up to 36%/18% block/spblock.
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Rumi%27s_Concoction
As a bow user, yeah its up for grabs more, since dw/shield block is not in the equation, outside of rumi's.
Then there is also quartz flasks for dodge/spell dodge.


(yeah, not all my chars are up to date. I try new things, and that tends to reflect more on NEW characters, not respecing old ones over and over. My TS pathfinder was Ascendancy. a few melee learned from it. A Deadeye coc in proph. Iceblades pathfinder this league.)
my TS ranger still has a point in essance sap mana leech it looks like. haha. Duelist ll/mana leech 2 points is the go to for sure now, for all rangers/duelists. her tree is out of date, and not optimized at all. (deadeye hit by coc rework, also needs many regrets to fix. haha.)

I will add a counterpoint if you wish to go full evasion on a pathfinder, with bow. Queen of the forest, etc. then, sure go acrobatics, I suppose.


Also, I wonder if we can justify going up for that Witch Flask node for a full 50% flask effect.
that is the real crazy you see on BV pathfinders. that granite flask is 4500 with 50% flask effect, getting 150% from of iron skin.. for 11250 armor all by itself. and rumi's getting 50%, is 45% block/22spellblock.
there is a nice crit multi wheel on the way...

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Casia wrote:

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Coatesy wrote:

Hey I want to run this in 2.4, what is everyone's opinion on best class/ascendancy at the moment?

I have a real hard time justifying anything that is not pathfinder these days.
Deadeye has some nice specific advantages, in the form of free chain/farshot/powerful prec. (but you feel like a wet paper towel after playing pathfinder.)

Raider is awful. never take raider. go assassin, trickster, or pathfinder if you even consider raider.

Pathfinder just wrecks though. huge defensive buffs in the form of flask effect, and flask charge gain/duration. 15-20% extra flask effect on a granite/jade flask 3k armor/evade, AND 15-20% flask effect on the +90-100% evade/armor during flask effect, from the of iron skin, etc you roll on it.
And thats just basic granite/jade. Nevermind Rumi's concoction. nevermind, witchfirebrew.
Master surgeon line frees up bleed removal on flasks, and gives flask recharge on bosses from crit, freeing up surgeon on flasks, again letting you run more unique flasks, or another utility like diamond/silver, etc. or, the elem line, which gives 8% elem dr, and elemental immunity. again, paired with flask effect granite, you are unkillable. (with pathfinder, don't take acrobatics, due to this. 15-20k armor from granite flasks, and base gear is better then the dodge.)
Vet bowyer's pen and extra damage is more damage for 2 points then avatar of the slaughter for 4, since its extra damage and pen, multiplying your damage.
Same deal with 100% poison on hit from master alch, for 2 points.. if you are phys based. And that also gives chaos resist..

you see, "pathfinder is good if your gear is good." alot. this is wrong. Pathfinder is totally broken if you gear is good. But it is still amazing, even if it is not. Even nonunique flasks get huge buffs, from pathfinder. Again, freeing up freeze/shock removal, or bleed removal, and surgeons. As well as the duration buffs to silver, diamond, and quicksilver. and general buffs to granite/jade double dipping of base+modifiers.

Hi Casia, I need some helpful advice from you if you will be able to provide (seeing how well you helped some other ppl :) ).
ATM I am lvl 79 Ranger on softcore Essence league and haven't yet done Labyrinth because I was busy rushing to maps. At the beginning I was sure to go Raider-onslaught as ascendancy since it looks soooo good in theory (from my view at least), especially for mapping and not needing run-speed flask, just onslaught flask. The reasoning behind this "wish" to take Raider was to be a bit safer while doing harder content, since raider nodes provide +10% spell dodge and additional melee/proj attack evade, while still giving a big damage and speed buff.
But now I'm reading this thread it seems every1 is taking Pathfinder instead.
Also, I am centering my build towards pure evasion, meaning I wish to get as high evade chance as possible + dodge from passive skill tree.

--->TL;DR: So my question basically comes down to why is Pathfinder so superior from Raider? Is it overall utility? Is the defense of Pathfinder (even though I think Rider should be defensive if taken right nodes??) really that much better then Raiders?

Hope you can help and thank you in advance :), HF.

what is awsome from pathfinder is, it give everything. utility, offence, defence. the flask are filling up really quick so you can just spamm those insane flask that give awsome bonus + pathfinder make them even better,last longer and give extra buff when you use them. the only downside is.....you need to spamm your flask lol

im pathfinder atm and i really enjoy it, im using sulfure+stibnite+atziris promise flask non stop. give insane dmg bonus+defence (stibnite give me 186% evasion+smoke cloud so my evasion chance is jump tru the roof)

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Powderoff wrote:

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Casia wrote:

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Coatesy wrote:

Hey I want to run this in 2.4, what is everyone's opinion on best class/ascendancy at the moment?

I have a real hard time justifying anything that is not pathfinder these days.
Deadeye has some nice specific advantages, in the form of free chain/farshot/powerful prec. (but you feel like a wet paper towel after playing pathfinder.)

Raider is awful. never take raider. go assassin, trickster, or pathfinder if you even consider raider.

Pathfinder just wrecks though. huge defensive buffs in the form of flask effect, and flask charge gain/duration. 15-20% extra flask effect on a granite/jade flask 3k armor/evade, AND 15-20% flask effect on the +90-100% evade/armor during flask effect, from the of iron skin, etc you roll on it.
And thats just basic granite/jade. Nevermind Rumi's concoction. nevermind, witchfirebrew.
Master surgeon line frees up bleed removal on flasks, and gives flask recharge on bosses from crit, freeing up surgeon on flasks, again letting you run more unique flasks, or another utility like diamond/silver, etc. or, the elem line, which gives 8% elem dr, and elemental immunity. again, paired with flask effect granite, you are unkillable. (with pathfinder, don't take acrobatics, due to this. 15-20k armor from granite flasks, and base gear is better then the dodge.)
Vet bowyer's pen and extra damage is more damage for 2 points then avatar of the slaughter for 4, since its extra damage and pen, multiplying your damage.
Same deal with 100% poison on hit from master alch, for 2 points.. if you are phys based. And that also gives chaos resist..

you see, "pathfinder is good if your gear is good." alot. this is wrong. Pathfinder is totally broken if you gear is good. But it is still amazing, even if it is not. Even nonunique flasks get huge buffs, from pathfinder. Again, freeing up freeze/shock removal, or bleed removal, and surgeons. As well as the duration buffs to silver, diamond, and quicksilver. and general buffs to granite/jade double dipping of base+modifiers.

Hi Casia, I need some helpful advice from you if you will be able to provide (seeing how well you helped some other ppl :) ).
ATM I am lvl 79 Ranger on softcore Essence league and haven't yet done Labyrinth because I was busy rushing to maps. At the beginning I was sure to go Raider-onslaught as ascendancy since it looks soooo good in theory (from my view at least), especially for mapping and not needing run-speed flask, just onslaught flask. The reasoning behind this "wish" to take Raider was to be a bit safer while doing harder content, since raider nodes provide +10% spell dodge and additional melee/proj attack evade, while still giving a big damage and speed buff.
But now I'm reading this thread it seems every1 is taking Pathfinder instead.
Also, I am centering my build towards pure evasion, meaning I wish to get as high evade chance as possible + dodge from passive skill tree.

--->TL;DR: So my question basically comes down to why is Pathfinder so superior from Raider? Is it overall utility? Is the defense of Pathfinder (even though I think Rider should be defensive if taken right nodes??) really that much better then Raiders?

Hope you can help and thank you in advance :), HF.

yeah, I am not a fan of raider. I tried it out with my flickerstrike char, to give it a fair shake. I think raider needs an entire rework. deadeye at least gives unique buffs ONLY deadeye provides.

Evade does not protect from spells. And even attacks its only when it works. physical hits get through. Dodge does the same thing, with spell dodge in acrobatics added in as well. This is why I push armor with pathfinder. you have physical DR, in addition to Elem resists. And even can have chaos resist, and more elem DR. covering all your bases.
raider "avoid" and dodge is just like Acrobatics. it will fail eventually. But is nice for reducing consistent incoming damage.

Avatar of the veil is the raiders best line. and in general is decent as is.
6% dodge on quartz infusion. phasing on kill, limited duration, but spooky ghost effect. "you have phasing" when max frenzy does not give spooky ghost effect, thus is worthless.
avatar itself gives that 20% move speed while phasing, immunity to status, and 10% spell dodge. Very good.

But as we noted, pathfinder also can get status immune. 20% move speed during flask. and.. can use:
Quartz flasks give phasing, and 10% dodge/spell dodge. (phasing first and foremost makes you look like a spooky ghost, and also lets you ignore collision.) 12% with 20% pathfinder, 15%/15% with 50%.

Chase line is good, but not great.
onslaught on kill, again trivial with silver flasks. Additive attack damage... weak.
50% onslaught effect.. so 10% as/ms/cs. again.. a few passive nodes saved?
25% more melee evade, 15% more proj evade. This is VERY good... But, is just rng again. And does nothing vs spells, especially physical spells, which ranger without armor has no defense vs.

next question is stacking evasion. Raider gets 15% each minor passive.
60% ok. neat.
same deal as granite flask, but now JADE flask of reflexes, and stibnite.
3000 evasion+100% evasion rating.
+stibnite of evasion. 100% evasion+100% evasion.
Raider gets 3000 eva+300%
20% Pathfinder gets 3600+360%

Lets say you had 2000 eva on gear, +150% in tree.
Raider-5000+510% with flasks up.=30,750 eva.
Pathfinder-5600+510%=34,160 eva
(a pathfinder that goes up into witch gets a full 50% flask effect, not just 20)
Also note, a pathfinder has a much higher up time on flasks, due to duration and charge generation, conversely, there are only 5 slots. Its easy to pretend the pathfinder has all flasks at all times, when they do not. if you run stibnite, granite, and jade, thats 3 of your 5, on defense, and not even a life flask. silver, and quartz not being counted yet either..

Avatar of the slaughter is raiders worst line and a "noob" trap. it only exist for +1 frenzy, the rest is utter trash. and trickster gives +1 frenzy for 2 points.
way of the poacher 10% AS, a basic passive. even natures adrenaline is far better. the 15% chance for frenzy is totally unreliable, no one would make use of it in place of poachers/frenzy/bloodrage, etc for controlled charge generation. may as well not exist imho. (I want this to be 100% chance on hit gain frenzy charge. 3s cd, or 1 charge per attack)
+frenzy duration on the minors is also laughable.
avatar of the slaughter is +1 frenzy. that is great. but the additive ad and attack speed is terrible, because it just adding damage. Even with the max 11 frenzy charges its just 33% AD,AS, 22% move. while these may sound great.. they just ADD, making them little more then basic passives.

Vet bowyer's extra elem damage, and 10% elem penetration are FAR more damage. both multiply your damage. Same with master herbalist's poison. its extra damage, multiplying.

Slaughter needs to do something that is more then just +stats.


Raider in boot form... as if you needed more reason to skip raider.
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Voidwalker

(ps also drives me nuts there is no trap/minion/mine line for ranger. Why in the world is a witch the best mirror arrow character?)

Thinking of doing Ice shot build and doing pmuch the augmented skill tree version. Any thoughts on ascendancies? Pathfinder? Other tips appreciated too. First proper go at a bow character for me
Ps.i play on hc

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Casia wrote:

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NavarreElder wrote:

Hoping someone can answer this.

What's my optimal 4 link and 5 link for Non Drillneck Tornado Shot since I'm starting in the Essence league? The gems listed up top are different from the ones listed down in the skill section.

Currently I'm running with TS - LMP (I'm using Death's Harp so no need for GMP) - PPAD - SLower Proj


Can anyone (maybe even Neversink? lol) advise me whether this is wrong and if so, what i should be using and what I should upgrade to 5link.

My non-drillneck TS.
5 link. TS-GMP-FA-PPAD-Ptl.

a 6l would probably be WED.

but gear as well,
102% WED on rings/belt/quiver.
A good amount of +elem/phys on rings, gloves.

And atziri's promise.
(and vet bowyer as a pathfinder.)

What is and isn't optimal kindof depends on your gear. My case, I got a good amount of elemental drops, so augmented that. Pure phys, you may want pierce/poison.
Deaths harp's raw damage is low. But, its crit multi and +arrows is VERY nice. And can be upgraded to Deaths Opus. Deaths opus's raw damage is better, but still not usually end game material. But again, that very high crit multi, and 2 added arrows is very nice. If you want to make an endgame item out of it. Focus on CRIT. Thus inc crit strikes, power charges and assassins mark. Added Chaos, and poison also good again.
The +2 arrows also means you can drop down to LMP and save "10% less damage."

Thank you very much for your reply.

No I wont take Death's Harp to end game, it's just something to use as I progress through the 32 and up levels. I'm Deadeye currently at level 52. I might upgrade to a Lioneyes for a quick and dirty upgrade. THat would let me map easily at least. If I'm staying physical I'd like to use Reach and drop out LMP/GMP altogether and throw in Poison and pierce. I'd get a Drillneck by then but I'm trying to plan for right now versus later.

Thanks very much. :)

Hey everybody, started a phys tornadoshot build following kinda this guide.

I can completely understand that pathfinder is the strongest option, but for me personal its to stressful to always check on the flasks and spam them at the right time.

so i decided for the deadeye since the raider seems the weakest option. Which ascendancyies are the right ones since we got 8 now and the guide covers "only"6

was away for like 6 month maybe the patches in between also changed like the ascnedancie points for deadeye overall?