Explanation of [Dodge-Block-EV] Life Crit Flicker

Under the backdrop of recent discussion on PvP build transparency and rumors of an incoming crit dagger nerf, I thought I'd share my knowledge of what I think is currently the strongest build in HLD: Dodge Block Life Crit Flicker.

This might upset some people, but the build is actually publicly available on the forums thanks to a post by Oosband almost a year ago. I'm just putting it here since a lot of people asked me about it when I played a shadow variant a while back.

I highly suggest you check out that thread by Oos. It's quite comprehensive and updated to reflect the changes in the 1.1.X patch. I'm going to give a brief overview of it below, with a focus on the mechanics behind the build since I believe those are the most important for new PvPers.

Concept/Mechanics
There are five different defenses in Path of Exile: dodge, block, evasion, armour, and energy shield. When you look at how effective DPS is calculated, your damage must get through these defenses in that order. Your attack/spell has to get through dodge, then it has to get through block, then it has to get through evasion, then it is mitigated by armour, then it diminishes your ES (unless it's chaos vs. non-CI/Shavs), then it finally depletes your life. That means you can reduce or even eliminate incoming damage through any these defenses.

The particular build I am talking about takes advantage of four of these: dodge, block, evasion, and armour (not so much AR, though). This is particularly effective because the first three have a chance at totally eliminating incoming damage. Evasion can be countered through spells, RT, or just really high accuracy. Block can be reduced with a support gem. However, dodge has zero counter, which makes it the most efficient defense (at just a 6 point investment + corrupted Atziri boots, you get 44% dodge attacks and 46% dodge spells).

As a side note, Armour is generally terrible in PvP because of how PvP-specific damage calculations work, which renders it close to useless.

When you combine this multi-layer defense with the sheer high damage of dagger crit flicker, the odds of killing your opponent before they kill you are heavily in your favor. The defenses let you get away with having your attacks occasionally miss or using an Abyssus whereas most builds would just die.




This is the ideal gear for the build, not my own, which is why most of it is not verified. The goal is to stack shit tons of DPS while getting 70% block (that's with 4% from tempest shield) and as much evasion as possible. Aim to get 90%+ accuracy and crit chance.

Gear















The ideal amulet doesn't currently exist, but I hear it's in the works (it would have EV instead of AR). Also, I'm not quite sure who crafted that dagger. It's similar to Kolp's but better.

Links
6L flicker
3L or 4L whirling blades
Hatred + Grace + Tempest Shield + reduced mana
The rest is situational.


Results
You end up with about 70k damage per use flicker without multistrike and 55k DPU flicker with it. You also get 70% block attacks, 75% block spells, 40% tooltip evasion (higher with Jade Flask), 44% dodge attacks, and around 15% tooltip physical damage mitigation. On top of that, you should also have 4k - 5k life.

The caveat with tooltip numbers is that they will almost certainly be substantially lower in PvP because of the higher stats of your opponents (relative to the stats of shitty PvE mobs upon which tooltip numbers are calculated)


Counterplay
Molten Shell
Smoke Mine/Blind
Enfeeble - Reduces crit chance, crit multi, accuracy, and base damage. Aka the life blood of this build.
High Evasion
Animate Guardian
Block Reduction
RT


I am not an infallible PvP god or even close. I'm just your average Sarn Arena noob so if I made a mistake - and I'm sure I have - please let me know. In the same vein, I welcome advice or criticism regarding build optimization or possible counter strategies.

I hope this helps someone,

Bhai
IGN: BaiBhai | BhaiBhai | Bhailo

Last edited by Bhai on Jul 30, 2014, 3:56:49 PM
Nice guide. You should be the first to post an HLD guide on poearena.com. It would be a good addition to the site.
IGN: @GreenDude
lightning coil does not work good in PVP since you will probably need to use a purity of lightning which is one wasted aura basically. Since you will not be able to run even an additional hatred coz of low max mana and low mana regen.

eva is not so great in pvp either since anyone with a decent accuracy will be hitting you 80% of time. With this build and a crest at most you can obtain 10k ish eva (even with perf gear since very few eve nodes in tree). If your opponent has 2k acc than the outcome will be

chance to evade = 1 - 2000 / ( 2000 + 2000 / (10000 / 4) ^ 0.8 ) = 1 - 2000/2522 = 1 - 0.79 = 0.21 not so great since its just 16% more than anyone without eva. And far from 40% you posted. The 15% armor is also quite speculative - it is probably 15% vs trash white mobs on a white lvl 78 map, but in PVP this armor provides an infinitesimally small dmg reduction which you covered under concept mechanics.

block is easily countered by block gem reduction gem, so basically you are spending 10+ nodes on block nodes just so your opponent has to use a 5L skill + block reduction instead of a 6L skill.

Since you are not CI you can not use melee dmg on full life meaning your dps output will be far less compared to CI flickers (which are also immune to chaos which you are far from, even with the perf gear you posted you are at -30%). The bottom line is that CI flickers will kill easier a wider range of opponents than this build.

To counter this DPS problem an obvious solution is abyssus which makes your 5k life equivalent to 3k vs phys dmg (which is used by 80% of builds) this leads to the following - you can one shoot most people but they can also one shoot you.

The bottom line is that this build is powerful since it combines 1-2 shot mechanics with a combo of defenses which leave you 60% of the time unharmed by spells and attacks. People hate flickers who kill them in one shot, for some reason even more than trappers, low life ek, puncture bows, EA who can also kill them in one shot (well EA might need more than 1, but they are fast and across the map).... I am not sure why flicker gathers more hate than all these combined when in fact they all share the common 1 shot mechanics.

And yea I use this build, and have close to perf gear for it. It is strong, but I would not say any one of the mechanics used needs a nerf, its jut their synergy that is quite problematic.

Now tell me how does this build do vs:
RT cycloner
low life EK
puncture bow trapper
poison arrow trapper
pure trapper
EA
(all with top line gear ofc)






items shop: 364086
ign: [ICU]missuse
if you like to HLD, add me
inactive in game atm, PM me if you need something.
Last edited by missuse on Jul 29, 2014, 2:01:24 AM
Great feedback, missuse.

"
missuse wrote:
lightning coil does not work good in PVP since you will probably need to use a purity of lightning which is one wasted aura basically. Since you will not be able to run even an additional hatred coz of low max mana and low mana regen.


Agree w/ comment regarding lightning coil - used EV chest myself. Just included it as a possibility to mitigate Abyssus while getting some life and lightning damage for shock stacks. Depending on your rings, ammy, and belt, it's possible to get it pretty close to capped without PoL as well, which may make it a viable alternative (especially since your physical damage mitigation sucks to begin with - converting damage taken to lightning with only 50 lightning res may actually be better).

"
missuse wrote:
eva is not so great in pvp either since anyone with a decent accuracy will be hitting you 80% of time. With this build and a crest at most you can obtain 10k ish eva (even with perf gear since very few eve nodes in tree). If your opponent has 2k acc than the outcome will be

chance to evade = 1 - 2000 / ( 2000 + 2000 / (10000 / 4) ^ 0.8 ) = 1 - 2000/2522 = 1 - 0.79 = 0.21 not so great since its just 16% more than anyone without eva. And far from 40% you posted. The 15% armor is also quite speculative - it is probably 15% vs trash white mobs on a white lvl 78 map, but in PVP this armor provides an infinitesimally small dmg reduction which you covered under concept mechanics.


Thanks for pointing this out, I should have been more clear. 40% EV and 15% AR were just tooltip, not the effective percentages. I'll edit the OP to reflect that. While 16% definitely isn't bad, a Reflexes Jade Flask would make it scale even higher, which definitely makes it a sizable factor.

"
missuse wrote:
block is easily countered by block gem reduction gem, so basically you are spending 10+ nodes on block nodes just so your opponent has to use a 5L skill + block reduction instead of a 6L skill.


20/20 block reduction gem gives you 44% block reduction, leaving you with 26% block against attacks and 31% block against spells, which is still sizable. Also, the difference between a 5L and 6L can be pretty massive. Because of the G socket color, players often lose Faster Attacks or Additional Accuracy, which have potent roles in your damage output.

"
missuse wrote:
Since you are not CI you can not use melee dmg on full life meaning your dps output will be far less compared to CI flickers (which are also immune to chaos which you are far from, even with the perf gear you posted you are at -30%). The bottom line is that CI flickers will kill easier a wider range of opponents than this build.


I've played both (I actually normally play CI flicker because I have better gear for it), and my personal experience has been far better with life flicker. Why? 2 reasons.

First, you don't need to make a huge investment for unwavering stance (or sacrifice the potential stats of a rare amulet versus eye of chayula).

Second, you can take acrobatics for a really efficient 44-46% chance to dodge. I simply die more often when I play CI rather than life because I can't dodge. Unfortunately, you can't kill people when you're dead so I ended up having an easier time getting kills too xD Also, chaos damage is pretty negligible with Ming's Heart and Atziri Flask (but definitely not as nice as 100% res :P)

I will say that a CoE/PA low-life flicker has INSANE damage output. Much higher than CI or life with Abyssus (~70k DPU with multistrike and ~100k DPU without) with a really manageable decrease in fire resistance. I wish I had the gear to test it more extensively. I think with max block, it's a very underplayed but powerful build.

"
missuse wrote:
To counter this DPS problem an obvious solution is abyssus which makes your 5k life equivalent to 3k vs phys dmg (which is used by 80% of builds) this leads to the following - you can one shoot most people but they can also one shoot you.


With damage mitigation being so useless, I think the difference between 3k and 5k effective life is not significant. You're very likely to be one shot by most HLD pvp builds either number.

At the end of the day, PvP (and PoE in general) is a probability game. Naturally there are ways to overcome the defenses of this build, but at the end of the day you are minimally sitting with 25 - 30% block (while forcing them to drop their DPS/DPU with a 5L), 16% evasion that scales >2x with a Reflex Jade Flask, and 44% - 46% dodge that cannot be mitigated. The reason this build is so damn good is not because of any individual defensive mechanism. It's because it can layer multiple mechanisms in a way that stacks the odds in your favour better than any other build I know of.

"
missuse wrote:
The bottom line is that this build is powerful since it combines 1-2 shot mechanics with a combo of defenses which leave you 60% of the time unharmed by attacks. People hate flickers who kill them in one shot, for some reason even more than trappers, low life ek, puncture bows, EA who can also kill them in one shot (well EA might need more than 1, but they are fast and across the map).... I am not sure why flicker gathers more hate than all these combined when in fact they all share the common 1 shot mechanics.


You already know where I stand on this. I cannot fathom why flicker is hated so much more than trappers, puncture bows, etc. At least flicker players have to come into the purview of your screen to kill you lol. I don't think there is any single god build, and this build is no exception. There many strong builds that succeed in stacking the odds in their favor. Obviously, players can restack those odds or change them in a number of ways, some of which were at the end of the post.

"
missuse wrote:
It is strong, but I would not say any one of the mechanics used needs a nerf, its jut their synergy that is quite problematic.


My only complaint is that I wish dodge had some sort of counterplay available to it. I think the investment you need to maximize its potential is too low (even with its drawbacks to ES & AR) given that it is totally undiminishable.

"
missuse wrote:
Now tell me how does this build do vs:
RT cycloner
low life EK
puncture bow trapper
poison arrow trapper
pure trapper
EA


I had really significant issues against RT cycloners unless I 1-shot them going in (or killed them with flicker on the way out). Need to try puncture. Low life EK was manageable (albeit somewhat chance-based) with good use of whirling blades. Dodge goes a really long way against trappers. I did significantly better against puncture and pure trappers with life flicker compared to CI flicker. Obviously CI flicker is better versus PA trapper. Never played against EA.
IGN: BaiBhai | BhaiBhai | Bhailo

Last edited by Bhai on Jul 29, 2014, 3:31:03 AM
didnt read the last post by bhai cause im in hurry, will read later, but ill throw my 2cent saying why i hate flicker strike skill over all other skill.
im a pure trapper, and i can hit a person with a trap in 2 cases:
1) he is melee, so i stack trap on the ground and lure him over it, or i put it under my feet
2) he isnt melee, so i need to throw the trap where i think he is running.
in the second scenario, i tested a lot of times against top pvpers in my guild, and if they are focused and concentrated, they can easy stop running or change path and manually dodge the traps.
so to hit a person that doesnt have to come over me, i must do lot of tricks and predict his movemente, most of the times i have to predict where i think he will go to dodge my trap and throw my trap there, so its a sorta of mind game that i will always lose because even with max %throw speed, traps are easy avoidable by running.

lets talk about flickers now. what they have to do to hit you? just press one button. they dont even have to namelock you, they just approach with very fast whirling blades and press the button. if they hit you and they crit (good builds have 80-90 % crit chance), most of the times you are dead.
i can be fine with the dmg they do, as pretty much all top tier builds can 1shot everyone, but im not fine with the way the skill works.

another problem is the insane crit chance you can get with daggers. all other builds that can 1shot with a crit have a crit chance that goes from 25-30 to 40, daggers have 80-90.



PvP Team Omniscient

IGN: aBearTrap / AnExplosiveArrow

[quote="MullaXul"]ICU + alpha, bad idea[/quote]
"
Bhaisabh wrote:

Agree w/ comment regarding lightning coil - used EV chest myself. Just included it as a possibility to mitigate Abyssus while getting some life and lightning damage for shock stacks. Depending on your rings, ammy, and belt, it's possible to get it pretty close to capped without PoL as well, which may make it a viable alternative (especially since your physical damage mitigation sucks to begin with - converting damage taken to lightning with only 50 lightning res may actually be better).


I also intended on using coil to mitigate abyssus dmg, but failed to achieve it. Even if you can mustard the lightning res without PoL (which will be impossible with just shield, belt and 2 rings so one needs to forget about maligaros, use an amy with lightning res - loosing one powerful stat, or forget about atziri's step - none of which are good alternatives imo) you will still be shocked by physical dmg a lot of the time due to the conversion. Also with this build you really don't want to get hit so going full eva is a better option imo.

That said Coil/rats nest is much better for PvE


"
Bhaisabh wrote:
"
missuse wrote:
eva is not so great in pvp either..

Thanks for pointing this out, I should have been more clear. 40% EV and 15% AR were just tooltip, not the effective percentages. I'll edit the OP to reflect that. While 16% definitely isn't bad, a Reflexes Jade Flask would make it scale even higher, which definitely makes it a sizable factor.


I agree 16 (21 in total) is not bad, in fact I don't even use a crest but rather an eva shield in my setup, since I feel the 5k eva more it provides in total > 10 block chance in most situations. Ofc a high eva (1500+), 38% chance shield is preferable.

"
Bhaisabh wrote:
"
missuse wrote:
block is easily countered by block gem reduction gem, so basically you are spending 10+ nodes on block nodes just so your opponent has to use a 5L skill + block reduction instead of a 6L skill.


20/20 block reduction gem gives you 44% block reduction, leaving you with 26% block against attacks and 31% block against spells, which is still sizable. Also, the difference between a 5L and 6L can be pretty massive. Because of the G socket color, players often lose Faster Attacks or Additional Accuracy, which have potent roles in your damage output.


I agree with this, that is one of the points of the build, forcing players to use block reduction (if they don't they are screwed instantly) and forcing attack builds to use add accuracy (not needed for most vs 10 k evasion but after 20k evasion becomes mandatory for most if they want to hit you sometime soon). So attackers are left with a 4L, RT and casters with a 5L.

"
Bhaisabh wrote:
"
missuse wrote:
Since you are not CI you can not use melee dmg on full life meaning your dps output will be far less compared to CI flickers (which are also immune to chaos which you are far from, even with the perf gear you posted you are at -30%). The bottom line is that CI flickers will kill easier a wider range of opponents than this build.


I've played both (I actually normally play CI flicker because I have better gear for it), and my personal experience has been far better with life flicker. Why? 2 reasons.

First, you don't need to make a huge investment for unwavering stance (or sacrifice the potential stats of a rare amulet versus eye of chayula).

Second, you can take acrobatics for a really efficient 44-46% chance to dodge. I simply die more often when I play CI rather than life because I can't dodge. Unfortunately, you can't kill people when you're dead so I ended up having an easier time getting kills too xD Also, chaos damage is pretty negligible with Ming's Heart and Atziri Flask (but definitely not as nice as 100% res :P)

I will say that a CoE/PA low-life flicker has INSANE damage output. Much higher than CI or life with Abyssus (~70k DPU with multistrike and ~100k DPU without) with a really manageable decrease in fire resistance. I wish I had the gear to test it more extensively. I think with max block, it's a very underplayed but powerful build.


I can tell you that I feel this build hast the upper hand vs CI and low life flickers. I've played several CI and one low life, and while they could one shot me, their hits simply landed fewer times than mine. But the thing is they have double ES than I have life, same block and lack dodge. So in a case where both of us can one hit each other, the dodge build is a clear winner.

you will dodge 44% of his attacks
he will dodge 0 of your
block same, both one-shooters

but if a dodge build needs to land more hits to kill the other player while he can land one, than I feel the CI/low life will take the win. So its a matter of how much more ES u need to overcome the dodge mechanics

"
Bhaisabh wrote:
"
missuse wrote:
To counter this DPS problem an obvious solution is abyssus which makes your 5k life equivalent to 3k vs phys dmg (which is used by 80% of builds) this leads to the following - you can one shoot most people but they can also one shoot you.


With damage mitigation being so useless, I think the difference between 3k and 5k effective life is not significant. You're very likely to be one shot by most HLD pvp builds either number.


yes, its partly true 3 is similar to 5 in pvp but then again why do u take all the life nodes? if its a glass cannon that relies on avoiding attacks and is meant to be one-shot. The thing is with 3k a slight breeze would kill you, non crits would kill you.

"
Bhaisabh wrote:
At the end of the day, PvP (and PoE in general) is a probability game. Naturally there are ways to overcome the defenses of this build, but at the end of the day you are minimally sitting with 25 - 30% block (while forcing them to drop their DPS/DPU with a 5L), 16% evasion that scales >2x with a Reflex Jade Flask, and 44% - 46% dodge that cannot be mitigated. The reason this build is so damn good is not because of any individual defensive mechanism. It's because it can layer multiple mechanisms in a way that stacks the odds in your favor better than any other build I know of.

My only complaint is that I wish dodge had some sort of counterplay available to it. I think the investment you need to maximize its potential is too low (even with its drawbacks to ES & AR) given that it is totally undiminishable.


Yes it’s a probability game. And this build has several layers of probability that each attack must go tru to strike. Why doesn’t a CI user use acrobatics? Its too big a penalty - 50%? Well I know several CI PVP-ers with 9-12k ES, if they took acrobatics they would have comparable ES to the life this build has, yet they don’t take acrobatics coz its’ too high penalty. Its because ES buffers always and acrobatics works less than 50% of the time. Acrobatics might be strong in this setup, because it has no counter play, but if it was reduced by flat 10% for instance it would be useless for all, like it was before.


"
tempallo wrote:

lets talk about flickers now. what they have to do to hit you? just press one button. they dont even have to namelock you, they just approach with very fast whirling blades and press the button. if they hit you and they crit (good builds have 80-90 % crit chance), most of the times you are dead.
i can be fine with the dmg they do, as pretty much all top tier builds can 1shot everyone, but im not fine with the way the skill works.

another problem is the insane crit chance you can get with daggers. all other builds that can 1shot with a crit have a crit chance that goes from 25-30 to 40, daggers have 80-90.


well, daggers are the highest crit base wep used in pvp (I never meet a wander in pvp) so ofc they will have more crit chance than a sword user or a spell user. Top of the line harbinger come close tho with crit chance.
So basically you are saying u mind the one button auto aim flicker from someone that u can see up close and who u can kite with Warp, who will easily hit your guardian if he just clicks it without aiming, and will most likely hit the guardian with aiming too, but you are ok with off screen GMP puncture with a harbinger?

To be honest, I don't see at all how I could beat you in 1v1, I might have more kills in the arena since its just how the build is, but in 1v1 vs u, I have no idea what I need to do, since any kill of mine involves hitting you while u stand in a bunch of traps all of which one shoot me. All my tries to destroy the traps end in: 1. u throw a trap at me - gg or 2. u relocate and throw a bunch of traps under your feet, rinse repeat till 1. or 3. I lose my nerve go for you and most likely end up dead.
Now bear traps..... can not be evaded. Ok, thats cool. can not be blocked. well ofc its a spell.... or spell blocked....
items shop: 364086
ign: [ICU]missuse
if you like to HLD, add me
inactive in game atm, PM me if you need something.
Last edited by missuse on Jul 29, 2014, 9:00:22 AM
i cant kite you with lighting warp since whirling blade is a lot more faster (maybe yours isnt, actually i dont remember, but for example i cant escape with lw against dullah), and the flicker distance is almost at the end of the screen, and its by a lot more far than my traps range (that is like little more than half screen).
Also guardian in 1v1 arena (where it cant be respawned) its so easy to kill from outscreen and engage after that.

i can guarantee you that i know at last 3 counters to my traps, and against 2 of them i really cant do anything but trying to run away. and if i run you will just flicker and kill me.
ofc i will not say them to anyone, but there are 2-3 ppl that already know and use them against me. but with their builds are not so effective as they would be with yours.
I'll say it once again, im fine with the dmg you can do, but im not fine with the fact that you can whirling blade so fast and just press one button without namelocking to kill me.

oh and btw, in the scenario you described, if you flicker on me while im on my traps and i die with ur flicker, you will die by traps but only after me, so you will get the victory. so i think you are advanced once again.
PvP Team Omniscient

IGN: aBearTrap / AnExplosiveArrow

[quote="MullaXul"]ICU + alpha, bad idea[/quote]
Last edited by tempallo on Jul 29, 2014, 9:40:29 AM
"
missuse wrote:
but if a dodge build needs to land more hits to kill the other player while he can land one, than I feel the CI/low life will take the win. So its a matter of how much more ES u need to overcome the dodge mechanics


This is true, but with a 50k DPU flicker (+ crit weakness) in conjunction with the terribleness of physical damage mitigation, I usually 1-shot 9-10k ES builds too.

"
missuse wrote:
Yes, its partly true 3 is similar to 5 in pvp but then again why do u take all the life nodes? if its a glass cannon that relies on avoiding attacks and is meant to be one-shot. The thing is with 3k a slight breeze would kill you, non crits would kill you.


Abyssus only increases physical damage taken, not spell or elemental damage. With 80 res across the board via Saffel's and capped spell block, that additional 2k life makes a considerable difference against casters (just not against melee). Worth it imo.


"
missuse wrote:
Yes it’s a probability game. And this build has several layers of probability that each attack must go tru to strike. Why doesn’t a CI user use acrobatics? Its too big a penalty - 50%? Well I know several CI PVP-ers with 9-12k ES, if they took acrobatics they would have comparable ES to the life this build has, yet they don’t take acrobatics coz its’ too high penalty. Its because ES buffers always and acrobatics works less than 50% of the time. Acrobatics might be strong in this setup, because it has no counter play, but if it was reduced by flat 10% for instance it would be useless for all, like it was before.


To be completely honest, I think a lot of people are unwilling to go CI acrobatics because a 50% reduction in ES is too "inefficient" for them to stomach. It's residual PvE mentality where you want your skill trees to be as point efficient as possible. I've actually been theorycrafting a CI Acrobatics build but don't have anything PvP ready... yet ;) Have you (or anyone else) tried it?

I believe the main trade off between CI flicker and life flicker is either 100% immunity to chaos damage or getting stun locked constantly. There are obviously a few ways to counter getting stunlocked even as CI (node near the ranger tree, eye of chayula, unwavering stance), but they require a heavy trade off or investment I'm not sure is possible while going acrobatics. On the bright side, as CI Acro, you could also drop Abyssus and just use Melee Physical on Full Life.


"
tempallo wrote:

lets talk about flickers now. what they have to do to hit you? just press one button. they dont even have to namelock you, they just approach with very fast whirling blades and press the button. if they hit you and they crit (good builds have 80-90 % crit chance), most of the times you are dead.


"
tempallo wrote:
i cant kite you with lighting warp since whirling blade is a lot more faster (maybe yours isnt, actually i dont remember, but for example i cant escape with lw against dullah), and the flicker distance is almost at the end of the screen, and its by a lot more far than my traps range (that is like little more than half screen).


I know when I fight shadowthefall, he actually can outrun me with lightning warp. Not because he's faster but because most flicker builds don't take enough mana regen to sustain it for very long (and extremely small mana pool with two auras).

I understand it might be frustrating that they can whirling blade to get in so quickly and flicker, but at least there is some marginal time to react. I feel like some combination of Molten Shell, Summon Skeleton Totem, Incinerate Blind Totem, Animate Guardian, Smoke Mines, Off-screen enfeeble (or temp chains) along with block and/or dodge should give you enough room to outplay.

I've never played a pure trapper before, but have you tried something like this: put out your traps/mines + one smoke mine behind you. At that point, your opponent probably done putting on auras and is moving towards you. When he gets in range to kill you (tricky, probably will take a lot of practice figuring out whirling/flicker range), hit smoke mine detonate so you teleport backwards. He will keep moving towards you presumably and run into your traps. Like you said, it's a total mind game, but that's the nature of a pure trapper.

If you had a bow, you would open up a lot more options for more active outplaying... Maybe pure trappers just aren't good against flicker. But I bet they shit on a lot of builds that can beat flicker. Not every build is equally strong, and not every build can beat every other build. It's a big ass game of rock-paper-scissor.
IGN: BaiBhai | BhaiBhai | Bhailo

Last edited by Bhai on Jul 29, 2014, 4:57:20 PM
"
Bhaisabh wrote:

"
tempallo wrote:

lets talk about flickers now. what they have to do to hit you? just press one button. they dont even have to namelock you, they just approach with very fast whirling blades and press the button. if they hit you and they crit (good builds have 80-90 % crit chance), most of the times you are dead.


"
tempallo wrote:
i cant kite you with lighting warp since whirling blade is a lot more faster (maybe yours isnt, actually i dont remember, but for example i cant escape with lw against dullah), and the flicker distance is almost at the end of the screen, and its by a lot more far than my traps range (that is like little more than half screen).


I know when I fight shadowthefall, he actually can outrun me with lightning warp. Not because he's faster but because most flicker builds don't take enough mana regen to sustain it for very long (and extremely small mana pool with two auras).

I understand it might be frustrating that they can whirling blade to get in so quickly and flicker, but at least there is some marginal time to react. I feel like some combination of Molten Shell, Summon Skeleton Totem, Incinerate Blind Totem, Animate Guardian, Smoke Mines, Off-screen enfeeble (or temp chains) along with block and/or dodge should give you enough room to outplay.

I've never played a pure trapper before, but have you tried something like this: put out your traps/mines + one smoke mine behind you. At that point, your opponent probably done putting on auras and is moving towards you. When he gets in range to kill you (tricky, probably will take a lot of practice figuring out whirling/flicker range), hit smoke mine detonate so you teleport backwards. He will keep moving towards you presumably and run into your traps. Like you said, it's a total mind game, but that's the nature of a pure trapper.

If you had a bow, you would open up a lot more options for more active outplaying... Maybe pure trappers just aren't good against flicker. But I bet they shit on a lot of builds that can beat flicker. Not every build is equally strong, and not every build can beat every other build. It's a big ass game of rock-paper-scissor.

you got me wrong, i was not saing that because i lose vs flickers, as my build has an advantage against melees, and since i have a lot of es most of the time i dont die in 1 hit, i was just saying that because thats the thing i think is not really balanced. anyway thanks for ur advices, but i already have my own playstile against them; i was just trying to say that my build is easy counterable, it just "seems" to work because most ppl dont know how to counter me, otherwise i think is a very weak build in 1v1, while i think my personal build is one of the best to have in a team in 3v3 / 4v4 /6v6 because give your team a lot of difference tactics to play.
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IGN: aBearTrap / AnExplosiveArrow

[quote="MullaXul"]ICU + alpha, bad idea[/quote]
"
tempallo wrote:
you got me wrong, i was not saing that because i lose vs flickers, as my build has an advantage against melees, and since i have a lot of es most of the time i dont die in 1 hit, i was just saying that because thats the thing i think is not really balanced. anyway thanks for ur advices, but i already have my own playstile against them; i was just trying to say that my build is easy counterable, it just "seems" to work because most ppl dont know how to counter me, otherwise i think is a very weak build in 1v1, while i think my personal build is one of the best to have in a team in 3v3 / 4v4 /6v6 because give your team a lot of difference tactics to play.


Ah okay, totally misread that - my bad!
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