<<*Separation of PvP Player Base*>> Please read this GGG

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Moosifer wrote:

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dzordzo wrote:

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Hilbert wrote:

Freeze must be removed from PVP or limited to 1 second, without chance to stack.

Cold resistance, sapphire flasks, cannot be frozen unique items ...

For LLD chill + temp is brutal. Apo was saying he was getting chill on someone with 2k life (10.0) doing only 200 damage. If you want to burn your flask trying to keep chill off from someone using FP, cold snap, ice spear and anything with added cold damage have fun losing the next 4 rounds.

I was having fun in LLD but the chill + temp combo just made it boring. I wanted a build without the OP skills, and it worked but against combos like that you need flicker and bear trap.

I'm not saying chill is in any way weak, but melees are definitely stronger than casters.

The skills they can use work a lot better with their kit.

Here are examples:
1. Wanderlust/Dream Fragments: Cannot be frozen
2. Warding flasks: Removes the curses that casters strongly rely on such as elemental weakness, frostbite, temporal chain, etc.
3. There are flasks that counter chill and freeze completely
4. Melees have a lot more mobility and gap closing skills
5. The crowd control effects that are caused by melee characters usually do not have a counter
-Knockback: Stops you from casting and you can't stop this in any way
-Chayula: Witches are a lot less tankier than melee characters, and Chayula weakens you even more, and I think it removes ES or maybe I was glitched

These are just some examples as to why I believe chill or freeze is not something to be crying about, especially when there are Unique items like Kalenhalt which provides 50 cold resist and 5 max cold resist.

There's a ton of imbalances, I don't think anyone can say otherwise. I can say from my experiences Apo and your cold witch made PVP annoying for me because my entire build after a while was set to counter you two. My original plans worked against everyone else I faced and I had close/back and forth fights with other melee builds.

With pots being limited I don't think it's fair to look at them as a cure all. FP alone is a face casting skill that will almost always chill. Also I think the chill and curse removal are both affixes meaning it takes 2 pots to combat these two things. Pots are useful but not a catch all. I'd actually much rather see more chill avoidance/reduction anywhere, general mod pool, low level uniques, or passive tree.

Again, I know there's many things to fix but chill is what made LLD frustrating for me everything else I found a reasonable way to deal with it.

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Moosifer wrote:

There's a ton of imbalances, I don't think anyone can say otherwise. I can say from my experiences Apo and your cold witch made PVP annoying for me because my entire build after a while was set to counter you two. My original plans worked against everyone else I faced and I had close/back and forth fights with other melee builds.

With pots being limited I don't think it's fair to look at them as a cure all. FP alone is a face casting skill that will almost always chill. Also I think the chill and curse removal are both affixes meaning it takes 2 pots to combat these two things. Pots are useful but not a catch all. I'd actually much rather see more chill avoidance/reduction anywhere, general mod pool, low level uniques, or passive tree.

Again, I know there's many things to fix but chill is what made LLD frustrating for me everything else I found a reasonable way to deal with it.

If you made your character well enough to face a melee character who usually out-damages a caster by ten folds, you should be able to tank enough freeze pulses to kill them.

At least that's my opinion xP

Also, I don't think anyone really uses immunity to chill and freezing effect potions, just some examples I listed that counters what casters can do.

And curses are available to all classes, so I really don't think curses are a problem.

Just get max resists and warding potions then you should usually be strong enough to flicker strike onto a caster and kill them.

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Amrthyst flasks were not added for LLD.

Chaos Res to make CI Viaable was also bad idea.
Imo Geofris should be the only item providing chaos res and there shouldn't be a chaos res malus.

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Why would it need such bloat ?

Because it's the most unbalanced skill existing.
Do you really think it's intended to do over 3k at level 28 or over 10k damage at high level oneshotting everybody without much effort.
The most effective level 28 PVP character is a Viperstrike Beartrapper.
In high level it's anything involving beartraps.

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Cold resistance, sapphire flasks, cannot be frozen unique items ...

Everybody finds DF or Wanderlust in CT races.
And resists or saphire only help a bit in low level pvp but once you got TC it's over

In high level pvp you will just get freezelocked due to crit builds and even the nerfed coldpenetration still hits hard.

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How is leap slam based on movement speed ? If you meant attack speed, that makes no sense either.

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In addition, leap slam speed is dependent on your attack speed, not movement speed, and the rate of leaps/sec is still the same. GGG made it so if you jump further, your character jumps faster, but the time it takes for you to actually do 1 full leap slam is the same, whether its 1 pixel to the left or 1000 pixels to the left.

The travel speed is based on the Armor you wear.
Not the Attackspeed!
Get a level 10 mara. Wear a Str based armor or Str Int based armor-->Slow
Use a Str/Dex armor-->Fast
Use ES/Eva Armor--->Faster
The issue isn't the attack speed it's how fast somebody can close in and get away.

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Are you even serious ?

When was the last time you played LLD ?

This is how useless AI gems could work in PVP.
The decoy totem only works on minions and summoners suck at PVP.
So why not players?

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I think it's totally fair to have that, and if you were to check the trade chat, you could see that people pay extra for leveled gems because they don't want to spend the time getting it on the same level as their other gems.

It's a stupid mechanic and have fun trusting another player with a high quality gem.

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I'm pretty sure they will be adding in more level brackets, and when more are added, there will be a higher demand for certain level requirements. For instance, nobody seems to sell Level 28 gear in trade chat, and that's because they don't know about LLD that much or just don't care. However, there are certain people who are aware of the demand for good Level 28 weapons that would strongly benefit from this.

I created a level 28 PVP in HC in CB and the only other players I fought with were either Viperstrikers or one other player.
In the end I used my level 28 character to PK players at bandits.

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Have a great summer :3

It's Winter in NZ......

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Here are examples:
1. Wanderlust/Dream Fragments: Cannot be frozen
2. Warding flasks: Removes the curses that casters strongly rely on such as elemental weakness, frostbite, temporal chain, etc.
3. There are flasks that counter chill and freeze completely
4. Melees have a lot more mobility and gap closing skills
5. The crowd control effects that are caused by melee characters usually do not have a counter
-Knockback: Stops you from casting and you can't stop this in any way
-Chayula: Witches are a lot less tankier than melee characters, and Chayula weakens you even more, and I think it removes ES or maybe I was glitched

Not everybody has them and they are absent in events for the majority of players.
Flasks are not an option the Flasks system is bad and if you use flasks you lose the match.
The dumb multi use of flicker strikes was already annoying in CB and you can guess what the enemyplayer will do against multiflickers there is that overpowered trap.....
Knockback is obvious and works only 1 match.

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If you made your character well enough to face a melee character who usually out-damages a caster by ten folds, you should be able to tank enough freeze pulses to kill them.

At least that's my opinion xP

Also, I don't think anyone really uses immunity to chill and freezing effect potions, just some examples I listed that counters what casters can do.

And curses are available to all classes, so I really don't think curses are a problem.

Just get max resists and warding potions then you should usually be strong enough to flicker strike onto a caster and kill them.

Your post reeks of arrogance.
You know as good as everybody else that burning potions means instant defeat.

Curses might ab available to all classes but curses require int for a longer duration so you everybody to use astramentis?
PVP was dead really fast after it got released because everybody guessed right with the PVP skills like Viperstrike and Beartrap on low level and Freezeskills, Beartrap and EK on highlevel.

Goddamnit I hate when I agree with you Hillock. Stop being an ass so much and I think you could really get some shit done around here.

Hilbert.

If you have not noticed, my main focus on most of my PvP threads are LLD, so the stuff you say about Merc PvP, I'm not well acquainted with : (

It's summer in Canada, and I forgot it's opposite for like Australia and New Zealand, used to live in NZ like 6 years ago singing the national anthem in both English and the native language Maori (Pretty sure that's what called)

Also, I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant, but I understand that Bear Traps are very strong. However, in Low Level PvP, in order for them to be effective as a kill skill, you need double Redbeak with low life usually. Also, I don't find bear traps overpowered as there are so many ways to overcome them, such as fireball, arc, your own traps, cold snap, immortal call and more.

In addition, I have never played against you recently (maybe I have, just don't know your name) but the best LLD build isn't bear traps and viper strike, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the LLD players can prove you that by showing you their builds.

And also, Zombie_Apocalypse has a LLD summoner build that does very well against many builds, so I think you're underrating summoners too much without actually making a build yourself.

I never understood what you meant by the have fun trusting another player with high level gems : (

Finally, I'm not talking about CT and being able to use your flasks effectively is also part of the skill in my opinion.

And most people can use curses without Astramentis...

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Chris wrote:

These are completely valid points. I'm trying to schedule time in the coming months to really improve PvP and add decent support for tournaments and such!

In the meantime, I'll discuss these points with the team.

Thanks Chris! And thanks for showing us that you do stop by the PvP forums :)

I agree with all of LPM's points. And while most of it will probably take significant dev time to accomplish, the gateway thing seems like it's already possible. After all, we can easily join PvE instances with people logged in from a different gateway, so I see no reason this cannot be done in PvP.

As for the balance tangent people are going off on...I think balance is the least of our concerns right now. Without a large enough playerbase it's quite difficult to get real testing in. And there will likely be new skills and various other changes by the time they make a PvP ladder.

However, setting up a coding framework that allows different skill effects vs Monsters and vs Players is very important in my eyes, even if we don't know for sure what those differences should be yet.

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Also, I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant, but I understand that Bear Traps are very strong. However, in Low Level PvP, in order for them to be effective as a kill skill, you need double Redbeak with low life usually.

This isn't the case since you boost your critchance with 1-2 Copper Kris in switch maybe also the multiplier. Then there are items like maligaros.

Then depending on class you can boost your multiplier even more.
My level 28 PVP shadow in CB had 1.7k HP 35% reduce and decent res.
It was really easy to find PVP items in CB since Cruel Thicket chest provided max level 28 rolls and merv was a good way to acquire items.
Since the HP nerf with 0.11.0 it's even easier to oneshot players!


Still a blockbased Viperstriker with a 5-6 linked magic armor with BT the damage gems and Harted was oneshotting me most of the times, simply because of Vulnerability and Crit.
And if I could destroy the traps with AoE skills it was nothing but potiondraining because of Viperstrike.

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Also, I don't find bear traps overpowered as there are so many ways to overcome them, such as fireball, arc, your own traps, cold snap, immortal call and more.

And here comes arrogance again or you play against noobs.
Players using beartraps usually close in really fast with desyncing skills. Throw 1-2 Traps and it's over.
You have no chance to destroy them because they are thrown at you.

The only thing you can do is run away or use own traps in case the player closes in with Flicker Strike-->Whirling Blades,Shieldcharge and Leapslam are more common.

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In addition, I have never played against you recently (maybe I have, just don't know your name) but the best LLD build isn't bear traps and viper strike, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the LLD players can prove you that by showing you their builds.

I played PVP in CB in HC and there weren't many PVPers there.
Mainly Viperstrikers, so in the end all serious PVPers introduced the rule no Beartraps and no Viperstrike, Glacial Hammer must be announced.
I am not playing PoE after OB because I consider OB a stupid MMO grindfest.
I am also not racing much anymore because the raceshedule is horrible.
I am mainly asking the devs either to promote PoE as MMORPG or give players usercode leagues.

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And also, Zombie_Apocalypse has a LLD summoner build that does very well against many builds, so I think you're underrating summoners too much without actually making a build yourself.

Decoy Totem and summons are no problem you won't be attacked even once if you cast the totem in correct positions.

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Finally, I'm not talking about CT and being able to use your flasks effectively is also part of the skill in my opinion.

And most people can use curses without Astramentis...

Oh yeah really big skill: Instant on low life-->Ok screen fades red-->Let's drink so Viper strike doesn't finish.
Also you don't understand that PoE suffers from horrible stun mechanics. Even you are unfrozen Glacial Hammer most likely stunned you too(T/C or/and Vuln) and it's the same problem as Diablo 2 has with chargers.

It also makes a difference if you are cursed for 6 seconds or for 12 seconds!
Mana is important in Low level PVP and you don't have many chances to curse often since with the introduction with PVP the devs had the stupid idea to triple the mana costs of curses, breaking the broken mana system even more. In CB there was a time the most expensive curses had 15 mana basis cost.

Potting is not a part of skill. Because you are forced to pot in such situations but if you are forced to pot you most likely lost the round.

Astramentis an item which allows you to go all out damage and life because you can use all items and maximize gem levels without effort.
It's much harder to do this with rares.

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As for the balance tangent people are going off on...I think balance is the least of our concerns right now. Without a large enough playerbase it's quite difficult to get real testing in. And there will likely be new skills and various other changes by the time they make a PvP ladder.

The devs already had feedback with the patchnotes on 9.12 and including some weeks later.
The PVP population declined because the devs either didn't read or forgot the feedback because they were busy creating more MMO like changes.

PVP balance requires a user league with limited areas and users having a ACP so they can provide fast changes.
There are far too many problems to fix it.
For example you can fix level early level pvp easily but what will you do once higher elemental damage mods spawn? There are really fast weapons which actually do better than the weapons for the current level, while the next tier with the same speed spawns later.

Hilbert, I understand that you're a veteran in CB and I respect your opinins on PvP.

However, I feel that you are making too many assumptions as to which skills are overpowered, underpowered, etc.

Also, it seems like your claims are purely bsed on wht you had experienced in CB.

A lot of things have changed, including the meta and players.

I strongly encourage you to give PoE another chance, and definitely LLD.

Unfortunately, if you are determined that your standpoint on PoE and the PvP system is absolute, I thank you for the feedback and hope to see you in the future :D

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Also, it seems like your claims are purely bsed on wht you had experienced in CB.

Total bullshit. Just because I am not playing it doesn't mean I don't read patchnotes.
You got 3 more Skillpoints on normal and 5 more total that's it.

The damage hasn't changed at all with 10.0 only mobs had more life gave less experience and the density increased?
Where is the big PVP change. High level Melees couldn't use PhaseRun and Granite Tanking got removed.

Here look:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Bear_Trap No change at all
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Viper_Strike Nothing
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Glacial_Hammer Even Stronger

Some skills like EK/FP got weaker but only because the devs checked PVM.
They didn't remove weaknesses from those skills such as EK working with Hatred and Added Fire or FP being a 3 linked gem already.
The gem changes were made with regards to PVM not PVP.

11.0 Changed the lifeoutput you got, increased defense in a halfassed way, nerfed Granites even further and increased damage meaning it heavily affects PVP in a negative way.

Do you really think I need to play to see consequences of the changes.

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I strongly encourage you to give PoE another chance, and definitely LLD.

I give PoE another chance if PoE gets reset to 9.13 with a far smaller act3 and balance changes that were really needed OR the Devs finally give players Usercode leagues so players can undo horrible changes.


A dumb instanced MMO deserves no chance I totally hate MMO. Especially not when I played much at the beginning of OB and I found many stealth nerfs like golden chests, mapdroprates on merciless(Yeah 5 day playtime on merciless and epic 3 maps on merciless in CB I needed 2h for 1 map! What standards do the devs use 15h a day? The best part is that the devs even denied the fact of the stealth nerfs either because they don't communicate much or they don't want to admit stealth nerfs), vendor receipes nerfs that force you to play in party and trade currency.
Oh and starting the game now is a bad choice for every player because there are poor players and really rich ones. It would take 1-2 months to get items together now because you have to pay 60 Chaos orbs for some PVP uniques.
Another reason not to play. Instead of currency being really common so players can use it to craft(far more mods for items) and the main trade currency are rare orbs and items, currency is dropping like in MMOS and the vendor receipes heavily unrewarding.

I should give a game a chance again with so much stuff I detest?
If season 4 also has such a horrible shedule with the same dumb settings(horrible rewards and demigods mainly for d2jsp scum racers) I gonna quit and possibly pick it up when it's on sourceforge. I have more fun coding for JA 1.13 than playing PoE.
A3x and Release mails won't get a chance because there are fundamental weaknesses present since CB(and I am not talking about desync) and changes in OB are orietend towards an MMO.


An ARPG means many fast short runs-->A feel of reward.
Boss damage gets calculated on the weakest character->Evasion builds(it shouldn't be a dumb MMO gearcheck)

And creating a character on an acceptable level mustn't take 20h or more.
ARPs are fast paced games.
But PoE gets slower paced every patch.

Not to mention D2JSP never was a problem in CB but why is it one in OB?
Simply because every player could easily acquire currency now you must play and trade much.
I said it in CB already that the basedroprate much be increased by 150% and the player modifier must be smaller so parties don't end up in white walls.

And Descent shows a perfect example that the devs have no imagination what good drops are.
You get some chaos orbs and alchemy orbs from chests, later regals too.
Not a single alteration orb. The drops are still the same as in normal gameplay.

And players expected something like orbs/items from every mob, exalteds everywhere, so you can actually craft almost optimal EQ.