'Trading Orb': The One Currency to Fix Trade

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SilverWF wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

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SilverWF wrote:

They are leaving because this game has not many content to enjoy and trading is not a slightest part of that content even in theory

Imagine removing trading and decreasing all drop rates in 10 times and removing all cheese crafts = how many players would left here? There won't be enough even at the start of the League

No one is talking about removing trade while decreasing drop rates, it is rather about decreasing trade because lowering drop rates WOULD be alternative. Right now trade is nearly instant while loot rain is insane.

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No auto-trading - bigger drop rate is good
If auto-trading - should reduce drop rates

How it's even relevant?

It is explained in trade manifesto, GGG made it quite clear there how loot and trade is related and what solutions they would see.

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Nomancs wrote:

It is explained in trade manifesto, GGG made it quite clear there how loot and trade is related and what solutions they would see.

I've expected to hear your version, but it's ok

They were mistaken then, they are humans, humans tend to make mistakes.

Drop-rates are not relevant to the trading at all.

Low drop rates favors only nolifers and bots, who can accumulate tons of currencies, while casuals barely could drop few divines for their whole League life

If trading would be automated, then poor souls could at least sell their stuff while offline and make some currencies.

This would make whole economy healthier.

There could be only speculators against automatic trading, because they would not be able to use their nolifing advantage.

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1eyedking wrote:

Trading is currently way, way too powerful, frictionless, and defeats the achievement of players progressing by themselves, which is the heart and soul of any RPG—action or not.

Thus, let me introduce the holy grail of Orbs, the fix-it-all band-aid this game needs, the Trading Orb! An item that from now on players would require to apply on their items or stacks to be able to trade them.

Ingenious, huh?

This extremely infrequent currency orb could be made to drop only during yellow/red maps (thus forcing the campaign and early mapping to be strictly SSF), and it'd make players behave much more strategically when it comes to trading and pricing items.

It'd make bartering be a thing again, and collaterally it would force players into actually using more of their crafting currency on their own items since they wouldn't be able to do bulk trades.
Players'd also have to start running their own content again instead of easily dumping things like Heists, Logbooks and Maps into the market, since the Trading Orb would be limited to few, key strategic trades which would be wasted on these kinds of items.
We'd have to, you know, actually *play* the damn game again for once.

It should be rarer than an Exalt/Divine, and not affected by IIQ/R.

Quoting the first post as a reminder what this topic is even about. If someone were to only read the last 10 posts they could get the wrong impression.

Circling back:

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D623932883 wrote:

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AkumaNoTsubasa wrote:

If you dislike trading, just play SSF.
Why do you want to enforce your playstyle onto other players? There is specifically a mode to be unable to trade.

The problem is the game is balanced around trading, which effects SSF leagues as well. If most skills/builds feel bad because of the high gear expectations associated with easy trading, SSF becomes bound to metas and boring.

And it's just plain unhealthy for the game to have very easy/fast character progression. For example, it lowers the amount of time players spend playing on each character and playing overall. Most players quitting the four month league two weeks in is bad for business.

I agree that if changes are to be made, then all modes need to be considered.

My problem with the proposed solution would be that since we know
a) the game is balanced around trade
b) there is no difference between trade and SSF in terms of drops
c) GGG strives to find a balance between trading and acquiring items through play

If trading was disabled by default and people would only start being able to trade once they start mapping (because remember, the suggestion is for the orb to be rarer than divs and exalts, and unaffected by IIQ), this would kill the early economy.

Commodity trades wouldn't exist; this includes cheap uniques, bubble currency, medium power rare items and so forth, because the individual item value is too low to be worth trading with.

In essence, this would increase the friction through trade drastically and make MF'ing mandatory for progression since you will still need those items but you will have fewer opportunities to acquire them. If IIQ doesn't affect the orb's drop rate, it will behave like Voidborn Keys and favor those players who kill lots of monsters quickly, further incentivizing speed mapping.

Overall there are way too many downsides to this and I don't think it quite tackles the fundamental problem. Interesting to think about nonetheless

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SilverWF wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

It is explained in trade manifesto, GGG made it quite clear there how loot and trade is related and what solutions they would see.

I've expected to hear your version, but it's ok

They were mistaken then, they are humans, humans tend to make mistakes.

Drop-rates are not relevant to the trading at all.

Well, you if you claim GGG is mistaken and you know better, then you can send CV and if you're great at economy/market they might hire you. But I will assume they run this business for over a decade so they know their game better. I also agree with them - trade need friction, and right now I would say that game drops so much loot, they either need to limit the trade or reduce drop rates BY A LOT.

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SilverWF wrote:

Low drop rates favors only nolifers and bots, who can accumulate tons of currencies, while casuals barely could drop few divines for their whole League life

If trading would be automated, then poor souls could at least sell their stuff while offline and make some currencies.

This would make whole economy healthier.

On the contrary, it would make poor poorer and rich richer, as better players can sell plenty more and better items, they just choose not to, because why bother 50c trade? More can be done mapping. With automated trade rich players that don't bother to interrupt their mapping would sell hundreds of items more, while poor would be poorer as they sell most of their items already, but a lot less people would buy them if they could get better items from better players. Important part is rich players in automated trade have easy way to dominate segments of the market, like we had it with Hinekora Locks - it will be just a lot easier. In the end less skilled players would have to buy items for 2-3x higher price, while earning 50% less.

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SilverWF wrote:

There could be only speculators against automatic trading, because they would not be able to use their nolifing advantage.

Not really, you can check other games how they manage their trade, like D4, EVE Online, LE, Grim Dawn, World of Warcraft.

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Nomancs wrote:

On the contrary, it would make poor poorer and rich richer, as better players can sell plenty more and better items, they just choose not to, because why bother 50c trade? More can be done mapping. With automated trade rich players that don't bother to interrupt their mapping would sell hundreds of items more, while poor would be poorer as they sell most of their items already, but a lot less people would buy them if they could get better items from better players. Important part is rich players in automated trade have easy way to dominate segments of the market, like we had it with Hinekora Locks - it will be just a lot easier. In the end less skilled players would have to buy items for 2-3x higher price, while earning 50% less.

You are ignoring simple trade mechanics, starting with

Lets' say you have dropped a bow, it's approx cost is 100div, you put it on sale
Dis you became richier already?
Not, but why?
Bcs nobody bought it yet!

Same here: no matter how many sellers would be there, the matter is - how many BUYERS there.

If there is more sellers, than buyers, then there is competition between then and prices goes down. And vice versa

That's why all of that - auto trading and more loot - should be implemented asap.

Not sure wdym about WOW - there is AH since ... long ago, maybe day 1, not sure, not played it too much.
EVE sux, D4 I don't have (maybe on sale...), LE (wtf?), Grim Dawn has 10 times less players in the Steam only, not sure there is trading at all.

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SilverWF wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

On the contrary, it would make poor poorer and rich richer, as better players can sell plenty more and better items, they just choose not to, because why bother 50c trade? More can be done mapping. With automated trade rich players that don't bother to interrupt their mapping would sell hundreds of items more, while poor would be poorer as they sell most of their items already, but a lot less people would buy them if they could get better items from better players. Important part is rich players in automated trade have easy way to dominate segments of the market, like we had it with Hinekora Locks - it will be just a lot easier. In the end less skilled players would have to buy items for 2-3x higher price, while earning 50% less.

You are ignoring simple trade mechanics, starting with

Lets' say you have dropped a bow, it's approx cost is 100div, you put it on sale
Dis you became richier already?
Not, but why?
Bcs nobody bought it yet!

Same here: no matter how many sellers would be there, the matter is - how many BUYERS there.

If there is more sellers, than buyers, then there is competition between then and prices goes down. And vice versa

It is prty much obvious for players who are more experienced in PoE - more rich and experienced players don't bother listing or responding to cheap trades up to 50-100c or even more atm, they COULD sell hundreds of items for 1c or 5c, 10c, 50c, they just choose not to interrupt their mapping as they will get more loot. Such items are only sold by poorer players. With automated trade market will be flooded with items better players don't bother selling right now. Casuals will have barely nothing to sell, except very few lucky drops.
You also seems to ignore the fact that more rich players will dominate the market, and I gave examples to that (Hinekora Locks).

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SilverWF wrote:

That's why all of that - auto trading and more loot - should be implemented asap.

You may try d4, it gives you everything asap without even the need to trade. Sounds like it might be right up your alley.

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Nomancs wrote:

It is prty much obvious for players who are more experienced in PoE - more rich and experienced players don't bother listing or responding to cheap trades up to 50-100c or even more atm, they COULD sell hundreds of items for 1c or 5c, 10c, 50c, they just choose not to interrupt their mapping as they will get more loot. Such items are only sold by poorer players. With automated trade market will be flooded with items better players don't bother selling right now. Casuals will have barely nothing to sell, except very few lucky drops.
You also seems to ignore the fact that more rich players will dominate the market, and I gave examples to that (Hinekora Locks).

Another one mistake

Rich players (I prefer to say nolifers and bots) have tons of "rich" stuff and their inventories are (sadly for them) limited

So they wont bother to waste their time and space with cheap stuff still!

But lesser market players would have better chances to make profit

Auctioneer House + More loot! Asap!

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SilverWF wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

It is prty much obvious for players who are more experienced in PoE - more rich and experienced players don't bother listing or responding to cheap trades up to 50-100c or even more atm, they COULD sell hundreds of items for 1c or 5c, 10c, 50c, they just choose not to interrupt their mapping as they will get more loot. Such items are only sold by poorer players. With automated trade market will be flooded with items better players don't bother selling right now. Casuals will have barely nothing to sell, except very few lucky drops.
You also seems to ignore the fact that more rich players will dominate the market, and I gave examples to that (Hinekora Locks).

Another one mistake

Rich players (I prefer to say nolifers and bots) have tons of "rich" stuff and their inventories are (sadly for them) limited

So they wont bother to waste their time and space with cheap stuff still!

Rest assured they have plenty of space left for free currency you want to gift them with free trade. How many tabs upper 10% you think have?

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SilverWF wrote:

But lesser market players would have better chances to make profit

Auctioneer House + More loot! Asap!

How, if they have only bad items no one would buy anymore, as rich players would sell better ones cheaper? xD
You want everything instantly for free, and I'm telling you about the consequences - ignoring them, will not make them go away. You may indeed like d4, as you get there everything instantly, give it a go.

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Nomancs wrote:

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SilverWF wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

It is prty much obvious for players who are more experienced in PoE - more rich and experienced players don't bother listing or responding to cheap trades up to 50-100c or even more atm, they COULD sell hundreds of items for 1c or 5c, 10c, 50c, they just choose not to interrupt their mapping as they will get more loot. Such items are only sold by poorer players. With automated trade market will be flooded with items better players don't bother selling right now. Casuals will have barely nothing to sell, except very few lucky drops.
You also seems to ignore the fact that more rich players will dominate the market, and I gave examples to that (Hinekora Locks).

Another one mistake

Rich players (I prefer to say nolifers and bots) have tons of "rich" stuff and their inventories are (sadly for them) limited

So they wont bother to waste their time and space with cheap stuff still!

Rest assured they have plenty of space left for free currency you want to gift them with free trade. How many tabs upper 10% you think have?

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SilverWF wrote:

But lesser market players would have better chances to make profit

Auctioneer House + More loot! Asap!

How, if they have only bad items no one would buy anymore, as rich players would sell better ones cheaper? xD
You want everything instantly for free, and I'm telling you about the consequences - ignoring them, will not make them go away. You may indeed like d4, as you get there everything instantly, give it a go.

The same - simple players would buy their simple stuff

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SilverWF wrote:

The same - simple players would buy their simple stuff

No, because better players would sell 2x better item for same price that they're not selling now as it isn't worth their time. You think you will get currency instantly, but ignoring bigger picture that it will make your items unsellable.