T17 maps are making me want to quit the game

The "clutter" (non-visual) is there because that's the only way to slow down players without straight up taking away mobility. It forces players to build a character with defensive stats which means they cannot put everything into offense/speed for once.

I'm not sure why people expect to be able to complete the game with ease while ignoring an entire aspect of their character power.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The post isn't truthful though. The claim that there is no room to dodge is incorrect.

Let's not be pedantic, ok. You are grasping at straws here, and for no reason.

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BaumisMagicalWorld wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The post isn't truthful though. The claim that there is no room to dodge is incorrect.

Let's not be pedantic, ok. You are grasping at straws here, and for no reason.

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That's what the argument hinged on, though? Nothing pedantic about it.

For those of us that never use such words...

pedantic
adjective disapproving
UK /pəˈdæn.tɪk/ US /pedˈæn.tɪk/

giving too much attention to formal rules or small details:
They were being unnecessarily pedantic by insisting that Berry himself, and not his wife, should have made the announcement.

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JunkHeadJoePC wrote:

For those of us that never use such words...

pedantic
adjective disapproving
UK /pəˈdæn.tɪk/ US /pedˈæn.tɪk/

giving too much attention to formal rules or small details:
They were being unnecessarily pedantic by insisting that Berry himself, and not his wife, should have made the announcement.

Yes, thank you for explaining it to Baumi

kurt described how he is unable to kill T17 map bosses due to "cluttered effects" on his glass-cannon build (before the part where we're all elitists for not nodding along without question).

I think the key problem here is that too many players have gotten complacent, because they have been able to forego the skill part of Path of Exile by just dumping more and more damage on a character.

When I was still playing SC I was playing a 100mill dps totem character that didn't even have capped resistances, but was able to do juiced Feared, Uber Pinnacles and whatnot more or less deathless. I don't have that luxury playing HC, but for a lot of people this is how they do endgame content league to league; and that just won't work in T17 maps.

So yes, the whole argument hinges on "clutter" when "clutter" is just them not knowing how to properly position yourself.

Maybe it's time to build a proper character instead of complaining about game difficulty?

So now its build limiting when...not every build can do all content? Or not do all content with equal amounts of investment? Or not do all content with equal amounts of attention? Or not do all content with equal amounts of practice?

What has this gaming world come to?! Because I could have sworn that is how every single game, every single layer of difficulty, every single CHOICE has always been. It can't ever possibly be equal for everyone, even among people running the SAME BUILD, and its rather impudent to think it should be.

If you are playing a build with not-so-great defenses, and you EXPECT to die a lot, then the tradeoff naturally is going to be a steeper learning curve. This has nothing to do with clutter, imbalance, or anything of the sort. It's just that, for YOUR particular build, it requires a different set of tools, time, and practical skill.

T17s are the absolute pinnacle difficulty currently in the game. That in-and-of itself is "build limiting", but thats primarily because it is self-SKILL limiting. Any player with any build is NEVER going to have an "equal" time doing any particular content the game has to offer, and none more than the HARDEST content. Running into a map designed to kill even the most hardcore defensive character...as one without defense to begin with...is setting yourself up for a much steeper difficulty. The GAME isn't the problem, the maps aren't the problem.

Stop blaming game design for what is ultimately at least 90% a PLAYER issue. I will grant that at least a PART of the problem is visual clutter....but based on the posts and descriptions being presented, that REALLY isn't the problem here.

It is basic character design: glass cannons will eventually hit walls where they can't survive. Defensive characters will eventually hit walls where they are too slow. This is basic gaming 101. All the tools are there to overcome these obstacles, you only need to recognize them and CHANGE your character. Not obstinately throwing your same character against the wall wondering why it still holds.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

So now its build limiting when...not every build can do all content? Or not do all content with equal amounts of investment? Or not do all content with equal amounts of attention? Or not do all content with equal amounts of practice?

The problem isn't that there is content that only a "small" percentages of the player base can do. We've always had that. The problem is when this content is 374 times more rewarding.

And yes, the harder the content is, the more obvious the lack of balancing becomes, funneling people into certain META choices. This league it isn't really a HUGE problem, because everyone has pretty easy access to very great gear, which somewhat smoothens out the balance issues. Next league, we won't - but then again, we won't have haunted modifiers either, so who knows.

I don't really mind T17 maps as a concept, but they are way too rewarding right now, making a needlessly large gap between those who can and can't. T17 maps don't need to be this rewarding. At all.

The problem with t17 is not the difficulty but the issue with builds that people play.
You can pretty much use whatever skill or build you like as long as you put some decent defensive layers up to survive trash mobs and some boss hits you're fine.
But the biggest problem for most of the community is that they are heavily used to just bump everything into dmg and get away with it, which isn't the case anymore with t17 so they struggle.
Game offers so many options to have great defensive layers for close to no investment, just always a shame to see all those 40k ehp glass cannon builds with nothing at all.

Lot's of players also value the words of all those bait content creators and terrible websites like PoE ninja too much which is also a big problem for their attitude towards t17 maps. But each on their own I guess

t17 is not you need a bit of defenses, t17 is roll for all defensive mods and have a build that facetanks ubers and maybe you won't eat random rippy oneshots from rares. In general rare affixes in POE are completely stupid, they should have deleted all of the archnem mods not just most of them, t16 rares can sometimes be nastier ubers to begin with, t17 ones can often pull that off. On top of that issue there is the fact that the t17 bosses are quite frankly really terribly designed, they're league mechanic bosses with minimal telegraphing for their giant hits buffed up to hit about as hard as ubers and with added noxious mechanics. They're still doable with a strong build but expect to eat a lot feels bad deaths via poorly telegraphed hit in competition with the uber shaper slam for damage.

All of this above however is secondary to the real problem with t17s, namely that they nerfed loot literally everywhere else and gated ubers behind grinding tons of t17s. They functionally raised the minimum floor of what is a functional build in the same league that they finished ripping out even more power from most builds. They have throttled build diversity to an even greater extent than previously. At this point you are basically funneled into playing one of a very few specific builds in order to participate in the economy in any meaningful manner. What is the point of POE's diversity of skills is fewer than a dozen of them are usable without completely gimping yourself or investing mirrors worth of currency?

Where did they nerf loot, I don't feel it? T16s with scarabs feel great. Maybe your point of reference is Affliction, in which case nothing compares in terms of raw loot. That's not a bad thing at all.