[3.15]Archmage Ball Lightning Hierophant, will it work in Expedition?

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SkylerOG wrote:

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Aniki_Leads_people wrote:

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SkylerOG wrote:

With 36 BL radius, the BL would first hit the mob at 18 units.

Dude, I think you mess up between "radius" and "diameter"...36 radius means it starts hitting the mob at 36 units. And the overall cover range is 72 units.

You're absolutely right. I completely juxtaposed radius vs diameter like an idiot. My bad.


That said, I still stand by the 13 hits limit for BL.


Here is another video I found of someone who tested this: https://youtu.be/anwnSslq1Q4


What he did was build a char with 100% chance to poison on hit, then slot the Golden Rule jewel to reflect poison hits to himself so he could count the stacks created, and then he fought Kitava due to the enormous hit-box. He also has slower projectiles (pre-nerf) on his gloves, along with +50% poison duration to make sure his poison stacks would last at least 3 seconds.

And with this, he STILL couldn't get more than 13 stacks.

And when you watch it, he's hitting 13 stacks before the ball is even finished traveling directly through the middle of Kitava.


So it appears there is a 3s animation for BL, but it's not producing any hits in that 3rd second. It's only doing it in the first 2 seconds.

This is a very nice experiment! I would try this by myself.

Edit: I've tried it and got the same result. You are right, BL can only hit 13 times maximum. Sad :(

Well, with BL being only able to hit 13 times max, that makes slower projectile nerf less of an actual nerf then right?


Also, max mana roll on a ring is 76, we could give up 41 mana and craft the +35 mana, 4% of damage taken gained as mana enchant on our ring?


Possibly dropping storm brand for orb of storms maybe? although we did lose out on a lot of aoe radius from heirophant.

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vladimars wrote:

Well, with BL being only able to hit 13 times max, that makes slower projectile nerf less of an actual nerf then right?

That's correct.

In fact, what this means is if you have 36+ AoE Radius on your BL, you really don't even need slower projectile support at all.

And, if you do want to use Slower Proj support, then you can have as low as 25 Radius on your BL and still achieve 13 hits per ball per cast.

The base travel rate of BL is 36 units per second. Most mob's hit-box is at least 2 units. So with 36 Radius on BL, you can keep it at normal speed and it should still reach it's 13 max hits per cast, if you've properly positioned yourself and launching BL's fairly accurately (start at edge of 36 units away from target and cast near the middle of the target).

A level 20 Slower Proj will reduce BL's travel speed to 25.2 units per second, which is why you can still get max hits with just 25 radius.

Additional +AoE radius would allow you to be more forgiving with your positioning and accuracy. The size of the target hit-box helps too. Not to mention the 3 BL's from spell echo and greater spell echo, each gain +50% AoE from greater spell echo mechanic. +50%, then +100%, then +150%, respectively. So you really have some leeway with this setup. Even more reason why slower proj isn't really necessary.


This would allow you to continue using GMP full time, even against bosses, OR maybe swap in Unleash.

Unleash BL's all cast almost instantly with the first BL released, but they do not benefit from spell echo or the +35% more multiplier and +50% increased AoE from greater spell echo.

BUT, they are still 3-5 more BL's at the same damage value as BL #1, and each one has it's own internal cooldown, so therefore they can also each hit 13x.


I'm going to use Unleash and path to Thunderous Salvos wheel, which will give me 8 BL's per cast. And then I'll continue using GMP for map clearing, but then swap in Controlled Destruction for GMP against bosses.

You can also track down a helmet with the +1 Unleash Seals affix to get up to 9 BL's, but they are already pretty costly and likely going to go up. In the meantime, Crown of Inward Eye is still a very nice alternative, and 8 BL's doing 13 hits each per cast (104) is still crazy damage.

I play on Standard, so I still have access to Fevered Mind 30/100 version and therefore still use Sanctuary of Thought, so my AoE radius is 38 and I could easily get it up over 40 if I wanted. So it may be more difficult for you guys in Harvest league to do all this, but over on Standard this build still rocks with very little effort.

For the unleash argument while you are adding 3 more ball lightnings with base damage of the first one ( or 2.67 with the less modifier they get), but your also giving up a gem slot. so you can get 40% more (or something like that) from a support gem. I gotta do the math ... ew math ... as i think more multipliers might throw it off. Oversimplified version would be assuming you don't change the amount of times it hits, and your base damage is 100 per hit. Just pledge of hands would be 100 + 135 + 170 + 205 which comes to 610.

Unleash would add 4 more casts, 3 at the beginning and one additional at the final repeat (assuming cast speed of around .18 to .2 seconds) which would be 356 damage (with the 11% less modifier).

for another support gem to add the same it would require 41% more damage on the support gem.

Not sure how adding in extra mores will change the calculation ... my initial thought is it would actually be in unleahes favor since the more (more modifiers) you add the lower impact of each one. going from 100 to 140 is a 40% increase, but adding another 40% more only results in a 29% increase from the first more.


If we path to thunderous salvo it makes unleash a bit better, and if we can find 8 points we could pick up both that and the curse node on the tree. Then annoint adjacent animosity for 1/3'rd of slower projectiles effect.

Hello. How do you proc EO on solo target with controlled destruction? Pob and poe skill info says its 0 crit chance.
Getting pc from staff block node?

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vladimars wrote:

For the unleash argument while you are adding 3 more ball lightnings with base damage of the first one ( or 2.67 with the less modifier they get), but your also giving up a gem slot. so you can get 40% more (or something like that) from a support gem. I gotta do the math ... ew math ... as i think more multipliers might throw it off. Oversimplified version would be assuming you don't change the amount of times it hits, and your base damage is 100 per hit. Just pledge of hands would be 100 + 135 + 170 + 205 which comes to 610.

Unleash would add 4 more casts, 3 at the beginning and one additional at the final repeat (assuming cast speed of around .18 to .2 seconds) which would be 356 damage (with the 11% less modifier).

for another support gem to add the same it would require 41% more damage on the support gem.

Not sure how adding in extra mores will change the calculation ... my initial thought is it would actually be in unleahes favor since the more (more modifiers) you add the lower impact of each one. going from 100 to 140 is a 40% increase, but adding another 40% more only results in a 29% increase from the first more.


If we path to thunderous salvo it makes unleash a bit better, and if we can find 8 points we could pick up both that and the curse node on the tree. Then annoint adjacent animosity for 1/3'rd of slower projectiles effect.

The thing is, if you can get 36 AoE, you don't even need any slower proj, so there's the free gem slot.

And 4-5 Unleashed BL's are going to definitely be more damage than slower proj's 29% more multiplier.

So with 36 AoE radius, you could do BL + spell echo + archmage + elemental focus + controlled destruction + unleash, and still get 13 hits per BL.

Otherwise, you could stick with slower proj and then not have to spend passives on Amplify, Blast Radius, Enigmatic Reach, and/or Arcane Expanse, because you only need 25 BL radius if you use slower proj support.

Now are all those passive points going to add up to more damage than Unleash + Thunderous Salvos?


I would say that in Harvest League, you probably want to just shoot for 25 radius and use slower proj. Because Sanctuary of Thought is pretty much out of the question there since you can't really counteract the 50% skill cost reduction.

But on Standard server, where we can still use a 30/100% Fevered Mind (plus Forethought), this means you can also get Sanctuary of Thought. Which means 36+ AoE radius is super easy. Which then means slower proj isn't necessary.


The downside is, unless you have a white socket on your PoH, you're stuck with a green socket because we're all obviously still using GMP for map clearing. So slower proj is probably going to be the default "more" gem for most folks simply because of that limitation.

Good call on not needing the large chunk of aoe now, i'll have to recalculate it. However, having one socket is pretty easy with vorci crafting in syndicate. Something to consider.


Edit: with slower projectiles and adjacent animosity 65% increased aoe allows 13 hits. (so any repeats from echos will have way more aoe then needed which helps clear and aiming like a monkey which is ok)

without adjacent animosity 100% increased aoe is required with slower projectiles.

without slower projectiles, but with adjacent animosity, requires 235% increased aoe, which would only happen with the final 2 repeats likely. (since they gain 100 and 150% increased aoe from the repeats only) This means that using unleash pretty much requires slower projectiles to make the increased aoe required since they don't get the increase from echo.

This leaves use with either controlled destruction or elemental focus to drop. Awakened controlled destruction gives the same more multiplier, but an increase in cast speed, and possibly some extra damage from shock (at the cost of being exepensive), elemental focus gives better damage then controlled destruction (not awakened), and doesn't require us to proc EO with storm brand as badly, since were more likely to maintain with just BL (not sure here tho)

Also unleash has a slightly higher mana multiplier (resulting in an extra 270 something flat damage from archmage) which is almost 8% more from that (applied to all echos, and negating the lost damage from the reoccurs)


Edit: so with pretty good gear (controlled destruction) average hit is 392029 (x4 casts x 13 hits)= 20.3 million shaper damage per CAST.

unleash's main damage for casts (no reoccurs) is 288239 (x4 x 13)= 14.9 million. Plus 3 initial and 1 on the last cast reoccurs. The reoccurs damage (removing greater spell echo and spell echo and adding in the less modifier for reoccurs and doing some fancy shit to get the mana cost right after removing those) 195000 x4 x 13= 10.1 million for a total of 25 million damage per CAST. This gets slightly better (2.5 million) with an additional seal. Seals (assuming 3) would take 2.1 seconds to come back, with casts before that being a bit less. A small amount of cast speed could probably be dropped.

This is not quite dps, it takes about .8 seconds to finish a full cast sequence. so the dps of controlled destruction edges a bit on unleash if your chain casting. You will get 1 unleash seal, then 2 unleash seals for each chain cast. 2 seals being 20 mill damage per CAST and 1 seal being 17.5 mill damage per CAST. But with the agnostic applying a drain on our mana, chain casting can be quite difficult right now.

3rd Edit: have we considered a lvl 1 cwdt-wave of conviction-coh-curse-curse-curse for our 6L? so we don't have to cast storm brand?

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vladimars wrote:

Good call on not needing the large chunk of aoe now, i'll have to recalculate it. However, having one socket is pretty easy with vorci crafting in syndicate. Something to consider.

Here's my dilemma on Standard server.

I don't know which of these combinations is ultimately better. The greater spell echo +35% more per successive echo (3 in this case), and because it's difficult to know exactly what Lightning Penetration is capable of in most situations, I am having a very hard time figuring out what to do.

BL + Spell Echo + Archmage is the default, of course. And also I have 38 AoE radius on Standard.

But then which combo of support is better?

Option #1: Elemental Focus + Controlled Destruction + Slower Proj?
- I don't really need slower proj, controlled destruction hurts my crit chance, and ele focus means no shocks, which is a bit counter-productive on a crit build like mine.
- This is also only 4 BL's, but at about a 29% higher average hit than the rest of these combinations. Plus it frees up 5 points needed to path to Thunderous Salvos, which can probably go towards 5 needed to reach Doom Cast, which nets 11% more damage.


Option #2: Elemental Focus + Controlled Destruction + Unleash (with Thunderous Salvos)?
- That's now 8 BL's with about 40% less damage on it's average hit than option #1. Do those 4 extra BL's net more overall damage than that +40%? The issue here is how does that look on the 3 echo's which have a compounding factor of +35% per echo? Those last couple echo's are going to be crazy damage with that extra 40% factored in. But how the hell do I quantify them?? We need a math wiz to create a freaking spreadsheet calculator just for this build, LOL.


Option #3: Awakened Lightning Penetration + Unleash + one of the others (ele focus? controlled destruction? slower proj?)
- Wouldn't lightning pen be more effective against bosses and less effective against regular map trash mobs?
- The damage on BL tooltip looks really lacking with LP + Unleash slotted, but I know that's because pen adds no upfront benefit and makes it's impact on the actual hit.
- Would it be overkill to be doing Elemental Weakness curse (-44% L res) + Wave of Conviction lightning exposure (-25% L res) + ALightning Pen (-42% L pen)?



I can't decide which to do. PoB is sorta unclear with it's handling of spell echo's and doesn't look like it correctly accounts for the more increases per echo. And I don't want to shoot myself in the foot with lightning pen if I'm already taking most targets into negative lightning resist with just WoC + Ele Weakness.

And if I decide not to use Elemental Focus, I would switch out Ele Weakness for Conductivity for the increased shock benefits.


I like min-maxing chars, but my brain is fried with this one. If anyone has any advice based on some actual quantification, that would be great.

Hi! When i can use rf? Nice build bro, im actually following them

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ShiftShot2 wrote:

Hello. How do you proc EO on solo target with controlled destruction? Pob and poe skill info says its 0 crit chance.
Getting pc from staff block node?

I think folks that have EO are using Storm Brand for this (which is their trigger spell for Curse on Hit).