[3.11] Shaper = Stunned, Tidebreaker Heavy Strike Stunner Build

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evilmindcz wrote:

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Kirbynou wrote:

Got a question about Life leech, never got in details about numbers, but I feel a bit low with my Berserker.

Is there any point taking Lust for Carnage on a Berserker ? PoB says no
It seems I'm already capped with Blood Rage alone, so is there any point to get extra leech on jewelries ?

Hematophagy up the leech a bit, but to gain 150/200 LL for 4 point doesn't really seems worth it.

Pain reaver is worth by itself but doesn't impact the choices of nodes, at least on PoB...

Have I missed something ?


Ps : It could help me choose between Pain Reaver / War Bringer for my last ascendancy points, but it's more of a general question for the tree.

I think some leech is always nice, but the thing is, you should stun your enemies, so you dont really need leech to keep you alive.

Thats why I choosed Warbringer, supported by Battle Cry cluster, and because i'm already there i could drop Lust for Carnage, and get Martial Experience instead, leech there is more then enough.

Additional sources of life leech are almost utterly useless. It doesn't matter if you leech 20% of your damage or 0.2%, you will be capped by 2% leech rate per leech instance and a 5 seconds leech instance duration cap.

The reason to pick Lust for Carnage is its attack speed. Lust for Carnage is an objectively better Berserking cluster (the one near Scion life wheel), and Berserking is picked all the time by other builds.

There is another reason to pick Lust for Carnage, and it's the 40% increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech. This straight up boosted our leech rate by 40% until it hits the 20% maximum leech rate cap. This is mostly useless for Slayer but can be very helpful for Berserker.

There is also a possibility that Lust for Carnage might be your only source of life leech. Then it's very important to have one.

If anybody has trouble understanding my statements above, you should read either my comments on Brutal Fervour in Slayer's ascendancy section, or Wiki pages about leech.

Overall, it's a very packed, powerful cluster, and there are few reasons to not pick it.

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brightwaha wrote:

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evilmindcz wrote:

I think some leech is always nice, but the thing is, you should stun your enemies, so you dont really need leech to keep you alive.

Thats why I choosed Warbringer, supported by Battle Cry cluster, and because i'm already there i could drop Lust for Carnage, and get Martial Experience instead, leech there is more then enough.

Additional sources of life leech are almost utterly useless. It doesn't matter if you leech 20% of your damage or 0.2%, you will be capped by 2% leech rate per leech instance and a 5 seconds leech instance duration cap.

The reason to pick Lust for Carnage is its attack speed. Lust for Carnage is an objectively better Berserking cluster (the one near Scion life wheel), and Berserking is picked all the time by other builds.

There is another reason to pick Lust for Carnage, and it's the 40% increased total Recovery per second from Life Leech. This straight up boosted our leech rate by 40% until it hits the 20% maximum leech rate cap. This is mostly useless for Slayer but can be very helpful for Berserker.

There is also a possibility that Lust for Carnage might be your only source of life leech. Then it's very important to have one.

If anybody has trouble understanding my statements above, you should read either my comments on Brutal Fervour in Slayer's ascendancy section, or Wiki pages about leech.

Overall, it's a very packed, powerful cluster, and there are few reasons to not pick it.

Well, my reason for not to pick it is that i'm not close to it with my version of tree, and apart from very nice attack speed (which is great for dps but doesnt help with stuns) the Martial Experience cluster actualy have even more increased total recovery from life leech. But i understand this probably only makes sense from my personal QoL angle... ;-)

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evilmindcz wrote:

Well, my reason for not to pick it is that i'm not close to it with my version of tree, and apart from very nice attack speed (which is great for dps but doesnt help with stuns) the Martial Experience cluster actualy have even more increased total recovery from life leech. But i understand this probably only makes sense from my personal QoL angle... ;-)

If you're not close to Lust for Carnage then you don't need to worry about it. Martial Experience isn't particularly good, but since you're playing Berserker and are close to that cluster, you can probably justify picking it.

Attack speed is actually important for stunning, below I will give my explanation to anyone who's interested.

Our maximum damage is around 15-20 times higher than our minimum damage due to Tidebreaker, Ryslatha's, double damage, and Ruthless.

If you view this as the x-axis, ranging from say 1 to 20, then we can also plot a y-axis, that's a 3-segment line: 0% chance to stun, say when x<5; 20%-100% chance to stun, say when 5<x<15; and 100% chance to stun, say when x>15. The 1st segment is due to stun chance being actually 0 if the calculated chance is below 20%, the 2nd segment is the increase in stun chance due to an increase in damage; and the 3rd segment is because probability is capped at 100%.

A plot
For each hit, the chance of stunning is the area below the curve, in other words, the integral of the function from 1 to 20. Then, imagine if our damage is low, and a big portion of our curve is at 0% - it means increasing damage dramatically increases our area (integral).

However, in this patch, physical damage is now 25% more effective at stunning, and most stun-related skills got a raise in damage per hit but also a reduced base attack time. Now a big chunk of our curve is at 100% - increasing damage no longer increases our integral that much anymore.

Given that we achieved a relatively high overall stun chance per hit, attack speed kicks in and becomes a huge factor in statistically helping the stun chance. The benefit of having attack speed in terms of stunning gets higher and higher when you get higher damage per hit, and will eventually surpass damage per hit and becomes our priority.

Attack speed also has the benefit of increasing our mobility and thus also helps our defense in the sense we can dodge stuff better. So usually my rule of thumb is that if we are choosing between x% attack damage and y% attack damage, I would go for the attack speed as long as it offers as much DPS.

EDIT: Above are just analytic reasoning, and I didn't give any mathematical proof. The reason is that the real-life situation is complicated, involving Ruthless strike giving more stun duration and other factors. However, I have done numerous tests using the stun simulation code and "computationally confirmed" my theory.

Thank you sir !

For other reason not picking it, in my config I have to choose between Lust for Carnage and another jewel, 3 nodes too. So 18%AS or 13%AS 7%life and another stat.

But I guess it's worth to pick it at the end of the build, maybe have to move some points :)

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brightwaha wrote:

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ichbinwerichbi wrote:

For all like me that test the build the first time.

The hint from brightwaha with the brutal fervor was the game changer. it should be taken as soon as posible.

Bevor i cant really kill the syndicate and died a lot. Since i had this node
i died not !!! Syndicate is fun, incursions really good with fast leap slam, bosses no problem til yellow map. (higher i dont play atm)

only leap slam seems bugged since it dont work if i do it a lot of times. its stopps working.(yes mana is there) :-)

AND the biggest problem. Had a temple with 70 and scantum of vitality (8 % regen on not unique mobs) and the blue mobs was ok but the yellow i sometimes dont get down. And my hideout dmg is 16 k without endurence charges.
Is there a trick ? they dont really move so bleed dont work.

All in all after taking brutal fervor the build shines and i have a shitload of fun with it.

You definitely shouldn't rely on bleed as your main source of damage, and you really shouldn't be lacking damage in most cases. But I do see that your gears have a lot of upgrade potentials, likely it's your gears that are falling behind in my opinion.

You may make some changes in your gems as well. Blood Rage and Warchief totem are very nice to have, as well as your choice of Guard skill (Molten Shell / Steelskin).

Thx for answer

i looked at your gear and the weapon i had wasnt 5l and 6 s but now it works and i have the tidebreaker 5l. So that will change. The belt was 30c as is bougt the tidebraker. That was a failure since now the belt is near 1 ex. So i need to get this currency.
What do you think i should upgrade next (no for kaoms the currency dont reach :-))
But for now i dont have problems anymore only dmg was to low. Hope that will change with the tidebreaker. will report

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brightwaha wrote:

EDIT: Above are just analytic reasoning, and I didn't give any mathematical proof. The reason is that the real-life situation is complicated, involving Ruthless strike giving more stun duration and other factors. However, I have done numerous tests using the stun simulation code and "computationally confirmed" my theory.

OK, thanks a lot for explanation, i'll make some adjustments now... :-)

Ok it makes a big difference with the weapon.

My hotkeys are all used, my lifeleech is on cap already.

Which acendancy is better then for berserker?

War bringer (no space for cry) or Pain Reaver (already at life leech cap)?

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ichbinwerichbi wrote:

Thx for answer

i looked at your gear and the weapon i had wasnt 5l and 6 s but now it works and i have the tidebreaker 5l. So that will change. The belt was 30c as is bougt the tidebraker. That was a failure since now the belt is near 1 ex. So i need to get this currency.
What do you think i should upgrade next (no for kaoms the currency dont reach :-))
But for now i dont have problems anymore only dmg was to low. Hope that will change with the tidebreaker. will report

I think Kaom's should be the next upgrade. It's expensive but it's what you need to keep yourself alive in red maps.

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Ionlyplaynude wrote:

My hotkeys are all used, my lifeleech is on cap already.

Which acendancy is better then for berserker?

War bringer (no space for cry) or Pain Reaver (already at life leech cap)?

There is one trick that is you can assign a skill to your leftmouse button. Some skills will not be activated when you click your mouse but will rather be activated when you hold shift then click.

If you're really out of skillbar slots, then you should probably pick Pain Reaver.

I don't know what you mean by already at life leech cap, if you meant "% of damage leeched as life", then yes, it's always enough leech for us as long as you get like 0.3%. If you already have life and mana leech from your gears, then the "% of damage leeched as life/mana" is just completely useless.

But Pain Reaver has 2 other lines as well. The attack speed and the "max total recovery /s from life leech" are pretty nice to have, although they are indeed pretty inconsistent.

War Bringer is super nice as well, if you can manage to find a slot in your skillbar I would recommend War Bringer over Pain Reaver.