The Lioneye's Watch wants some PvP clips

i strongly insist on that players shouldnt be a part of a balance team. we are surrounded by the game, we all have tunnel vision because of the builds we play with.

they should ask our opinions of course but letting players shape balance of a game? Oh man, i would sell my gear so fast chris wilson would get fever from that.

balance team should be people who are outside of the game, has good knowledge of mathematics and sense of pvp. and they should let some imbalances to happen.

if they let players to decide pvp balance, they would nerf the thing they have the most problem with cause their perception is filled with that. there is no such thing like "fair" player. its not because everybody is an selfish prick inside, its because how perception of human works. whoever does balancing, should hear us, let some imbalances happen and just play with mathematical values.

I agree with Rup and Marckucszskzczcszczszsssssscscczcscz. We all do a lot of subconscious balancing that would tip the odds back in our favor to some degree. But we all can agree that EA is T1, Zerphi's is problematic, and GGG needs to get their shit together, in pvp AND pve.

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Rupenus wrote:

i strongly insist on that players shouldnt be a part of a balance team. we are surrounded by the game, we all have tunnel vision because of the builds we play with.

they should ask our opinions of course but letting players shape balance of a game? Oh man, i would sell my gear so fast chris wilson would get fever from that.

balance team should be people who are outside of the game, has good knowledge of mathematics and sense of pvp. and they should let some imbalances to happen.

if they let players to decide pvp balance, they would nerf the thing they have the most problem with cause their perception is filled with that. there is no such thing like "fair" player. its not because everybody is an selfish prick inside, its because how perception of human works. whoever does balancing, should hear us, let some imbalances happen and just play with mathematical values.

To balance a competitive game, you need the outside perspective of the developers because they convey the company's philosophy and what they'd like the end game to be, but you ABSOLUTELY need competent players to do the grunt work.

There's a reason Riot Games invited me and other high end players to alphas of new seasons. And there's a reason the company I work for reaches out to top players when we're working on a balance patch or a new competitive element or a DLC. Even our unreleased games have at least 2 or 3 QA guys who were hired specifically for their skill at either similar games or previous games in the series. The importance of their input is beyond important because they're the ones who have the best understanding of the whole picture.

We have developers working on some of our game titles who are so focused on their very specific side of the job that they've barely even seen what the game looks like. This isn't uncommon in any big game development company. You can't expect those people to properly balance a competitive element.

Obviously GGG isn't going to fly some top players to their HQ for a few weeks to balance PvP since the most they're willing to do is tell us to stop insulting each other on the forums. At the very least, if Chris or developers with an interest in making a change wanted to get the ball rolling in the right direction, they should DEFINITELY contact top players.

The problem however is that from their point of view, it's difficult to asses who's actually a top player. The ladder doesn't mean anything and some builds are as cookie cutter as it gets, which displays no player skill or depth of understanding.

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I agree with Rup and Marckucszskzczcszczszsssssscscczcscz. We all do a lot of subconscious balancing that would tip the odds back in our favor to some degree. But we all can agree that EA is T1, Zerphi's is problematic, and GGG needs to get their shit together, in pvp AND pve.

This bias is very real and affects QA teams all the time. That's why focus groups get called on fairly frequently.

The best way to deal with it tho is to get input from various sources. QA teams aren't very big, but player bases are huge (and free!). Getting input from even 10-15 high end PvP players would shine a light on the right issues with a lot less bias than you might think.

Shameful.

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Rupenus wrote:

i strongly insist on that players shouldnt be a part of a balance team. we are surrounded by the game, we all have tunnel vision because of the builds we play with.

they should ask our opinions of course but letting players shape balance of a game? Oh man, i would sell my gear so fast chris wilson would get fever from that.

balance team should be people who are outside of the game, has good knowledge of mathematics and sense of pvp. and they should let some imbalances to happen.

if they let players to decide pvp balance, they would nerf the thing they have the most problem with cause their perception is filled with that. there is no such thing like "fair" player. its not because everybody is an selfish prick inside, its because how perception of human works. whoever does balancing, should hear us, let some imbalances happen and just play with mathematical values.

That is literally the way all pvp-related games are balanced. Group of experienced people working together with the dev team. The reason why it is a group is so that every balancing aspect gets the attention it deserves.

inb4 "PoE is not a pvp game"

Also how do we accurately determine who is enough of a "top player" to talk to the devs in this game?

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inb4 "PoE is not a pvp game"

Also how do we accurately determine who is enough of a "top player" to talk to the devs in this game?

We count fingers pointed at them

Could someone tell me how the following favors any one player/build over the other in an unfair way?


-Revisiting skills that have been reduced or increased in PvP effectiveness in the past.

-Actually giving the new skills the same treatment

-Finding a solution to Scolds/Zerphi synergy which goes hand in hand with the line(s) below.

-Reducing the damage of Cwdt/Cws/CwC. You know defense options that do as much damage as main skills. That also have synergy with spell damage, which is commonly paired with more defense options that do the same....Molten Shell,Tempest shield,glove enchants...ya uhm, hard to justify that one...I dunno.

-Overlap of aoe skills. You know melee has like one of these in the form of Molten Strike while ranged...yes R A N G E D has several (also new and not reduced). While you're at it these skills have multiple damage levels/stages/hits. Want to know what melee has that does the same thing? A skill that is 50% effectiveness and 30% less damage in PvP, accelerates bleed, gets butchered by slows, has tons of aps (counter productive thanks to the algorithm), sucks dick versus block, gets caught up on ant shit that just happens to be on the floor in its path. Or melee has single hits...hit...hit...hit...takes a good 5-10 of those to net the same results as 1 shot of any other skill which actually trivializes the PvP algorithm GGG took about 1 minute to master mind.

-Everyone is Pathfinder, why?

-Everyone is ranged, why?

-Everyone has a bow, spell dagger or wand why?

Id really hate to come off as bias or seeking to better myself here by having such a wild balance outlook. I know you guys are all so fucken awesome that you immediately see right through my ruse.

I also have fingers you can count pointing at the "pros", there's two of em and they mean fuck you.

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MullaXul wrote:

Could someone tell me how the following favors any one player/build over the other in an unfair way?


-Revisiting skills that have been reduced or increased in PvP effectiveness in the past.

-Actually giving the new skills the same treatment

-Finding a solution to Scolds/Zerphi synergy which goes hand in hand with the line(s) below.

-Reducing the damage of Cwdt/Cws/CwC. You know defense options that do as much damage as main skills. That also have synergy with spell damage, which is commonly paired with more defense options that do the same....Molten Shell,Tempest shield,glove enchants...ya uhm, hard to justify that one...I dunno.

-Overlap of aoe skills. You know melee has like one of these in the form of Molten Strike while ranged...yes R A N G E D has several (also new and not reduced). While you're at it these skills have multiple damage levels/stages/hits. Want to know what melee has that does the same thing? A skill that is 50% effectiveness and 30% less damage in PvP, accelerates bleed, gets butchered by slows, has tons of aps (counter productive thanks to the algorithm), sucks dick versus block, gets caught up on ant shit that just happens to be on the floor in its path. Or melee has single hits...hit...hit...hit...takes a good 5-10 of those to net the same results as 1 shot of any other skill which actually trivializes the PvP algorithm GGG took about 1 minute to master mind.

-Everyone is Pathfinder, why?

-Everyone is ranged, why?

-Everyone has a bow, spell dagger or wand why?

Id really hate to come off as bias or seeking to better myself here by having such a wild balance outlook. I know you guys are all so fucken awesome that you immediately see right through my ruse.

I also have fingers you can count pointing at the "pros", there's two of em and they mean fuck you.

Other people are right when they say that you'll sometimes bring up good points and immediately taint em with a shitty fucking attitude.

I don't see anybody here who's saying anything different than you are now. No one saying melee is in a good place.

Do you have to be a dick to get a point across?

I honestly think this is the least dickish I've seen in a wall of text from him. Personally he's only one of a few aggressive players I've come across in pvp, and the thing is, he's nothing compared to players in FPS games' pvp modes. I think the gist of his assholery might be to keep the casuals out; if they use largely broken builds and are lambasted for it, then they have little reason to stay around and put up with it. That's the way I see it.

But everyone is Pathfinder because it hard counters status ailments and bleeding with any flask usage, she does crazy shit with any and every flask... She's popular because it's just easy. This is said from an observational view, I'm not going to use Pathfinder like, ever.

As for why everyone is ranged, that's an easy question and you know it. Ranged is just inherently better. Why do damage UP close when you can do it from afar?