Elemental Penetration.

You can swap pen gems, IF you know who is using them and which version, but did you notice people not really showing off their talismans at all? That's like the only really worthy secret to keep in PvP still.

Oh and it really is a valid counter for those who got it. Of course it won't win you a match in itself, but those few people who are rolling it are likely to make viable builds, and benefiting from it a lot.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that talismans are what should be used against pen, I'm saying if penetration is being nerfed/modified, the talismans should be touched as well, because they create a huge contrast, much like how gear difference meant a lot before, talismans still mean a lot for those who use them.

"

MullaXul wrote:

Brass Dome is good on a melee character. Depends on the match up but most often then not its a good trade for any chest if you can ignore crit multiplier. As far as me having 8k life, nearly 40k armor, Fortify and full melee damage still using the chest. Me dying in 1 Barrage burst while it takes me 4++++ hits to kill the ES crit bow user....well not much to really say. First we can conclude that armor is absofuckinglutely dog shit. Barrage broken perhaps, or is it just the ever obvious ongoing debate of why do bows even have 500+ x-x weapons that can do as much damage as a 800dps 2h melee weapon in RT form...but from ranged. Rupenus's base damage output is as high as mine...before he crits. Tool tip x-x is ridiculous, then you multiply that by his crit multi (which I ignored 100% with Brass Dome but was still 1 shot at 8k life). This is just more of the same old shit we've always been dealt. Wouldn't matter if I was using Kaoms, then you're facing the multiplier and you're 1 shot yet again.

For me Barrage seems broken in itself on top of bow skills in general. I didn't find any note on if they have any separate PvP reduction, and if it is really the case, then it is understandable how bad it is because it bypasses a lot from the PvP formula. They have a fairly avarage attack time on tooltip, but they pump out 5-10 projectiles with that attack time. If the formula doesn't account for that fact then it should be hotfixed asap.

For example Lightning Tendrils has this kind of reduction: 4 hits per time, so T divided by 4.

If Barrage would get the same treatment it would live a magnitude of Vortex nerf.

"

Márkusz wrote:

"

MullaXul wrote:

Brass Dome is good on a melee character. Depends on the match up but most often then not its a good trade for any chest if you can ignore crit multiplier. As far as me having 8k life, nearly 40k armor, Fortify and full melee damage still using the chest. Me dying in 1 Barrage burst while it takes me 4++++ hits to kill the ES crit bow user....well not much to really say. First we can conclude that armor is absofuckinglutely dog shit. Barrage broken perhaps, or is it just the ever obvious ongoing debate of why do bows even have 500+ x-x weapons that can do as much damage as a 800dps 2h melee weapon in RT form...but from ranged. Rupenus's base damage output is as high as mine...before he crits. Tool tip x-x is ridiculous, then you multiply that by his crit multi (which I ignored 100% with Brass Dome but was still 1 shot at 8k life). This is just more of the same old shit we've always been dealt. Wouldn't matter if I was using Kaoms, then you're facing the multiplier and you're 1 shot yet again.

For me Barrage seems broken in itself on top of bow skills in general. I didn't find any note on if they have any separate PvP reduction, and if it is really the case, then it is understandable how bad it is because it bypasses a lot from the PvP formula. They have a fairly avarage attack time on tooltip, but they pump out 5-10 projectiles with that attack time. If the formula doesn't account for that fact then it should be hotfixed asap.

For example Lightning Tendrils has this kind of reduction: 4 hits per time, so T divided by 4.

If Barrage would get the same treatment it would live a magnitude of Vortex nerf.

Tbh, it seems as if, most bow / range skills don't get T values, and most melee does, which doesn't really help the situation. Ea on the other hand is so heavily capped based on its tvalue, a +3 (does 1000) and a +0 QR (Does 600) rendering any kind of damage stacking useless, and furthers the problem of increasing attack speed instead.

"

Holy shit, that's the exact same shit I was thinking lol

"I HATE THIS ONE-SHOT THING GOING ON IN PVP" as he wall/ground-spams EA all over the fucking place and one-shotting everyone with EA.

I'd be like me complaining about anti-freeze flasks not working.

The irony is, pen is my main source of damage, and nerfing my pen would greatly lower my damages output. The salt stirring drama aside, I don't really like the "Immunity mechanic" either, and being path finder and flask affixes, limits a wide variety of builds. a all round 50% Less effectiveness on immunity mechanic's would be a better option? Quad cursers can't be fully dispelled, ignite burning arrow trappers can still do damage? Sound good to me.

However... with grand spectrum x16 EA can ignite up to 6k hp on 1 arrow, and half that is 3k ignite, 5 arrow ignite damage is outrageous. With little to no counter? Unless you use 2 immunity pieces? like flask 50% + ash 50% robes?

Hmph.

"

MullaXul wrote:

"

Rupenus wrote:

penetrations numbers are high since ascendacy. but is this the issue of pvp that we should address?

for sure no,

the problem has always been the AoE.

AoE > non aoe. this havent changed since the very beginning.

Cyclone was king = you were stacking max aoe + weapon range, outranging your target, turning like a wheel around your target and disabling all possibilities of getting namelocked. there was no counter.

EA = obvious. AoE + very fast, unblockable, you dont even need damage nodes in tree to deal max damage in game. but its power comes it from beeing aoe.

LA = guess what? aoe. chains from walls, chains from frost walls. on top of that it was dealing hell lot of damage when there is a frost wall.

oldie goldie, firestorm + inquisitor = aoe. i dont wanna waste my time to explain this.

fireball, arctic breath = aoe. unblockable.

HoT is aoe too. surprised? no. anything that doesnt require mouse aiming should have low damage imho.

damage formula MUST be build around AOE too. for example:(this is just a suggestion i didnt like this idea either)the more aoe you have, the less damage you should get in pvp.

While true AoE > single target skills. It's because of a few things, more support gems that allow them to perform as good or better then single target. Also require little to no aim and benefit from overlapping or pseudo shotgunning.

Where does Barrage stand in all of this though? Again bow damage is ridiculously high when you consider quiver,tree synergy and fact its ranged. Lets not forget, 1 shot 8k life, 5+ second immortal call after the first arrow touched me, 40k armor (not by choice but that's just what I had).

The problems left in PvP are as follows...

Zerphi's and basically anything abusing flask charges i.e Worms. There's also some stupidly imbalanced shit with witch ascendancy, especially the one that lets offerings affect the player when layered with other things.

EA and most bow skills.

Hands free, walk and win builds.

I do feel your pain, I remember a while ago, jin made a melee skills video, addressing the problem, AoE attacks, having more damage than single target attacks such as heavy strike.

But from a "feel's" type of perspective, melee is actually doing rather well right now? mygal is doing nice damage, and so is mulla, and dethlock's 1 shot leeb EQ is rather powerful too.

That said, a introduction of Tvalues to most bow skills would really help things out, as melee have tvalues, and most bow skills such as LA + barrage doesn't, it'll really even the grounds out a lot more.

I feel that, a nerf to ele penetration, would greatly benefit physical damage dealers, as well no? you gain 2 additional gem slot, cause you no longer need to convert everything to elemental damage, and use ele penetration? And the biggest counter molten shell wouldn't nearly hurt as much back to you?

Cause lets face it, nobody uses armor in pvp . . . although immortal call is a major issue for another day though.

"

The irony is, pen is my main source of damage

actually no. as i said, an build EA can 2 shot 7k life.(3.5k+3.5k) without pen. with pen its 2 shot too. (5kk + 5.5k)

well i dont think i'll ever play HLD or probably ever poe. and i'm sure after me only some blindly enthusiastic guys will play until their interest vapourize in time. bow attack skills are useless now in pvp. it is miraclous to me that people take bow builds serious and talk about their viability even when we are talking about HLD here. i wanted all these bow shit to get nerfed and i'm glad with it. thank god after this happened now i confess how bullshit poe is.

"

Rupenus wrote:

"

The irony is, pen is my main source of damage

actually no. as i said, an build EA can 2 shot 7k life.(3.5k+3.5k) without pen. with pen its 2 shot too. (6k + 6k)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPUg1tv-0I&feature=youtu.be


you've probably seen this already, but if you had watched closely enough, I didn't use my fire penetration, I was solely using a flat 5 link Ea.

and the fights seems very challenging and rather many close calls along with many losses.

and my damage hadn't seem rather extreme, unless you let me full stack my arrows on a wall over 3-4 times, or rather 4-7 times to kill shin.

Mmm.. balancing is tricky, after all.

"

Rupenus wrote:

well i dont think i'll ever play HLD or probably ever poe. and i'm sure after me only some blindly enthusiastic guys will play until their interest vapourize in time. bow attack skills are useless now in pvp. it is miraclous to me that people take bow builds serious and talk about their viability even when we are talking about HLD here. i wanted all these bow shit to get nerfed and i'm glad with it. thank god after this happened now i confess how bullshit poe is.

^ That I don't understand, are you annoyed that bow skills are nerf'ed in pvp? or are you happy that bow skills are nerf'ed in pvp? it's rather contradicting, and I'm ever so confused.

honestly, we're both pretty wealthy in poe, and I think we both have level 100's, PoE doesn't really offer us much, in terms of entertainment/ chase / progression, I personally, quite enjoy the social aspect of it all, despite quite strangely globally hated by few, but don't fret, PoE's is just a game, and a game is for fun, and fun only, it's not quite it's your job or something.

Hoping for some things changing in December.

It's probably best if we just let all of the pathfinders jerk each other off until then.

well, what im saying is simple, bow attack builds have no viability in pvp anymore. LA was broken and was killing pvp fun and i'm glad that they nerfed it. but since i'm started getting to feel
that 'i have nothing to do in poe anymore' i started to realize more how useless and shitty poe pvp is. if others don't gg, gl to them and i hope they'll have really good fun

"

Rupenus wrote:

... bow attack builds have no viability in pvp anymore.

Hahahahahahahhaha. Compared to what? Melee, casters, trappers, summoners? A little dramatic there aren't we?

"

Firebrand76 wrote:

"

Rupenus wrote:

... bow attack builds have no viability in pvp anymore.

Hahahahahahahhaha. Compared to what? Melee, casters, trappers, summoners? A little dramatic there aren't we?

lol, bow builds are pretty much all T1 compared to other shit (except like Shin/HoT).

Not sure how EA, blast rain, barrage and LA are suddenly "not viable". What's not viable is 80% of the spells and 90% of the melee skills.

I don't get the reason for all of this salt. I guess it's because its PvP, and not PvE.

There will always be flavor of the month builds. In PvE, right now its BV pathfinder or Harvest/Writhing Jar shenanigans. But other builds still exist and do fine, they just aren't an easy win button. As for PvP, LA/Vortex died, so now the focus is on traps/HoT/Scoldbreath/PenStacking, whatever.

Instead of complaining about how OP everything else, why don't we focus on why they are op? If its massive damage, we need to get better T values. If it's op Flasks, then we have to figure out how to tune them for PVP. If it's penetration, T values.

If you guys really want GGG to learn from us and actually fix problems, you have to give them constructive input as to why each thing is broken, and offer ways to fix it/balance it in accordance to everything else.


All that being said, Bow skills seem to do fine right now. I see a pretty diverse meta when I'm 1v1ing or 3v3ing, even with the occasional OP outlying build.

Turn your salt into something useful. Spend that effort helping grow the PvP community instead of bitching about it and maybe you'll feel less shitty about your characters/gameplay/life/whatever it is that makes you so angry.